During my travels, I have witnessed what I believe to be some of the most amazing crag on the planet. All of which... is completely untouched.

We didn't start the fire.

Then I suggest you ask the local Afghans whether they want their mountains "touched".

It seems we forgot to ask them in 2001 whether they wanted 10 years of imperial war even though they had nothing to do with 9/11 (but only pipeline routes we coveted).

I doubt many people would've said before we invaded Afghanistan that it was either the wrong thing to do do, or that we didn't have the right.

The problem was in cutting and running to Iraq before the job was finished.

Incidentally, the Afghans have already said that once peace can finally be achieved, they intend to make mountaineering a major portion of their tourism promotion campaigns.

I don't really want to turn this into a political discussion, but....

There were lots who did (including me), and so did a number of 9/11 family members and Vietnam vets.

No nation has the right to attack another that didn't initiate aggression (both Iraq and Afghanistan fall into that category). Perhaps you've forgotten that the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis and Egyptians (our ostensible allies) - not Afghanis or Iraqis - and to this day the FBI acknowledges it has no evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11. In addition, the Taliban government of Afghanistan offered to turn bin Laden over to the US if we could present any evidence of his involvement - we couldn't and they didn't.

Of course that's the same excuse some used for our abject failure in Vietnam - we "cut and run" too early. The important point, however, is that it was an illegal war of aggression from the start, that we couldn't defeat a nation intent on protecting its own independence (they modeled their declaration of independence after our own), and we got into it under false pretenses (the faked Gulf of Tonkin incident) just as we did in these last two wars.

Then, the strategic materials were tin, tungsten and rubber. Today it's oil and gas.


"The Afghans" being one entrepreneurial guy who has bought into the "free market" commercialism that we're trying to export to Afghanistan to change their millennia-old way of life.

Just when I think its safe to walk away from a threadjack after somebody politely asks me to, somebody else goes and does something so indescribably stupid that I almost feel obligated to address it.

*sigh*

But I'm not going to address it.

I remmeber reading a conspiracy about 9/11. Said it is 99.9% impossible for a modern building to colapse from fire.

At least its gone from the useful thread.

You should, while you still have freedom of speach...

The only conspiracy theory is the official government report. But I know of no witnesses who committed suicide.

Yes, it's 100% certain that three WTC buildings were brought down by controlled demolition.

I must be getting soft. I gave you way more credit for intelligence than you deserve.

Useful?

You think it's "useful" to talk about commercializing a country and ancient culture that we've attacked, occupied and virtually destroyed?

And I don't suppose you see the irony in the proponent of such exploitation being one of the mercenaries occupying that simple and proud country.

Useful?

You think it's "useful" to talk about commercializing a country and ancient culture that we've attacked, occupied and virtually destroyed?

Not "soft" but deliberately ignorant.

These are just a few of the people who believe that the official story is a cover-up, that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition and/or that 9/11 was almost certainly an inside job:

<long list>

Not "soft" but deliberately ignorant.

These are just a few of the people who believe that the official story is a cover-up, that the buildings were brought down by controlled demolition and/or that 9/11 was almost certainly an inside job:

Steven Earl Jones, PhD physicist, who co-published a peer-reviewed paper on the nano-thermite residue in the WTC dust

Bill Christison, former senior official of the CIA, a National Intelligence Officer and the Director of the CIA's Office of Regional and Political Analysis

Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology

Joel S. Hirschhorn, Ph.D., a Senior Staff Member of the Congressional Office of Technology Assessment

Lynn Margulis, Ph.D., member of the National Academy of Sciences and world renowned scientist

James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of NIST's Fire Science Division

J. Marx Ayres, former member of the National Institute of Sciences Building Safety Council

Michael Ruppert, former LAPD narcotics detective who uncovered the CIA connection to the crack cocaine coming into LA

David Ray Griffin, professor emeritus of Theology and publisher of eight books on 9/11

Paul Craig Roberts, PhD, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration, former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, Business Week, and Scripps Howard News Service

Steve R. Pieczenik, MD, PhD, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under President Nixon, Ford and Carter

Rep. Curt Weldon, Ten-term Republican Congressman from Pennsylvania, House Armed Services Committee Vice Chairman. Homeland Security Committee Vice Chairman.

Senator Max Cleland, former member of the 9/11 Commission, U.S. Senator from Georgia. Administrator of U.S. Veterans Administration, qwarded Silver Star and Bronze Star for U.S. Army bravery in Viet Nam.

Louis Freeh, Director of FBI, 1993-2001, former U.S. District Court Judge for Southern District of New York (appointed by President George H.W. Bush), former Deputy United States Attorney in New York, former FBI agent, former officer in United States Army

Edward L. Peck – Deputy Director of the White House Task Force on Terrorism under Ronald Reagan, former Deputy Coordinator, Covert Intelligence Programs at the State Department. U.S. Ambassador and Chief of Mission to Iraq (1977-80), 32-year veteran of the Foreign Service

Morgan Reynolds, PhD, Chief Economist, Department of Labor under George W. Bush 2001-2002, former Director of the Criminal Justice Center at the National Center for Policy Analysis

Catherine Austin Fitts, Assistant Secretary of Housing under George H.W. Bush, former Managing Director of Wall Street investment bank, Dillon, Read & Co.

Morton Goulder, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence and Warning under Presidents Nixon, Ford, and Carter (1973-77).

Rev. William Sloane Coffin, Jr., Captain, U.S. Army Intelligence, World War II, Former CIA Case Officer

General Albert Stubblebine, U.S. Army (ret),– Commanding General of Army Intelligence and Security Command (INSCOM), 1981 – 1984, former head of Imagery Interpretation for Scientific and Technical Intelligence, 32-year Army career.

Col. Robert Bowman, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret) – Director of Advanced Space Programs Development under Presidents Ford and Carter, Air Force fighter pilot, over 100 combat missions, PhD in Aeronautics, Nuclear Engineering

Col. George Nelson, U.S. Air Force (ret), former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority, 34-year Air Force career

Col. Ronald D. Ray, U.S. Marine Corps (ret), Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense during Reagan Administration, highly decorated Vietnam veteran (two Silver Stars, a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart).

Lt. Col. Anthony Shaffer, U.S. Army (ret), former Military Intelligence Officer, Defense Intelligence Agency, member of Able Danger effort to target Al Qaeda’s global structure, former Chief of the Army’s HUMINT [Human Intelligence] program, awarded the Bronze Star for bravery for the first of his two combat tours to Afghanistan, 23-year military intelligence career.

Lt. Col. Karen Kwiatkowski, PhD, U.S. Air Force (ret),–former Political-Military Affairs Officer in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, Staff Member, Office of Director of the National Security Agency, 20-year Air Force veteran

Commander James Clow, U.S. Coast Guard (ret), former Chief of National Response Center
U.S. Coast Guard Headquarters

Major Scott Ritter, U.S. Marine Corps, former Marine Corps Intelligence Officer and Chief Weapons Inspector for the United Nations Special Commission in Iraq 1991-1998

220+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
41+ U.S. Counter-Terrorism and Intelligence Agency Veterans
1,500+ Engineers and Architects
250+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
400+ Professors
300+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals
400+ Medical Professionals

Ok I've tried to avoid you, but I'll engage for a minute.



You have NO fucking clue what you are talking about. This country doesn't have that "ancient" mistique you are referring to. This country may be simple, and proud... but it's not the tribal land with wild horses you seem to think it is. It's dirty, violent, and the citizens here have been oppressed by tyrants for generations LONG before we ever even noticed this place. Take a drive through Kabul and you'll see the effects of DECADES of poverty and oppression that you can't possibly comprehend.

I have talked to hundreds of Afghans, and almost all of them have told me about the horrors inflicted upon them by the Taliban. The older ones remember how it was before the Soviets and the Taliban... they speak of an Afghanistan that was on the verge of industrialization.... until the civil wars. (which we had nothing to do with)... and since then its urban centers have plummeted into filth and decay. In the country - where you seem to have the delusion that they have a pure and simple way of life - they are forced to produce opium on an industrial scale. This country once produced more heroine and hash than anywhere else in the world. This was forced on the population by a ruthless and violent cartel that made the Mexican Mob look like a bunch of little bitches.

We have put a stop to virtually all of that. We have given them the strongest government they have had since the '60s. We are teaching the farmers how to grow crops that will actually FEED their FAMILIES instead of put money in the pockets of the Taliban and the cartels. We have infused the first measurable amount of infrastructure this country has ever seen. We have secured the ability for the youth to seek a well rounded education.

And we didn't do any of this for oil. We didn't do it for resources of any kind. We did it to rid the world of a horrible violence... the likes of which threatened even our own homes.

So you may not believe in our mission here, but I really don't care what you think. I know your type. You're just another over-read hyper-liberal who will never do anything more important than argue on the internet. You will never actually stick your neck out for a cause greater than yourself. What's worse - you probably have the potential to be so much better. I can see you have an interest in rescue? Well I am also a firefighter who specializes in para-rescue. (vertical, swift water, fire, urban/collapse search and rescue, and many many more...) I can identify with that sense of calling. So I encourage you... get over yourself. Get out there in this world. Hell travel to Afghanistan. See what is REALLY out there instead of seeking your education on the internet.

Maybe then you'll realize what a fucking jackass you are being.... Mercenary... son they don't pay me that much.