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knubs


Aug 31, 2011, 7:04 PM
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cam placements
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ok, well i've been climbing for a few months now and i just got a set of black diamond cams. i dont lead, nor do i want to, but i TR a lot so basically im just using them for anchor building. so far i've been going around practicing anchor building and one thing that keeps bothering me is when a cam fits perfect but the crack is so uneven that no matter where i place it, one side of the cam is always opened a little more. is this bad? it's never extreme, but sometimes one head is just opened a tiny bit more. if i look at the left and right set of cam heads separately, they both look very solid. i sat there and yanked them as hard as i could, and they seemed very sturdy.
so what do you guys think?


billl7


Aug 31, 2011, 7:59 PM
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knubs wrote:
ok, well i've been climbing for a few months now and i just got a set of black diamond cams. i dont lead, nor do i want to, but i TR a lot so basically im just using them for anchor building. so far i've been going around practicing anchor building and one thing that keeps bothering me is when a cam fits perfect but the crack is so uneven that no matter where i place it, one side of the cam is always opened a little more. is this bad? it's never extreme, but sometimes one head is just opened a tiny bit more. if i look at the left and right set of cam heads separately, they both look very solid. i sat there and yanked them as hard as i could, and they seemed very sturdy.
so what do you guys think?

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

At the same time, what I want is symmetry. If those are BD C4s, each opposing pair of cams should be deployed about the same amount. But that's just what I want, not having gone back and looked hard at your question in light of the design of the thing.

Bill L


knubs


Aug 31, 2011, 8:56 PM
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i did actually try to take pics but they didnt come out.

the cams are the c4's, and just imagine taking a c4 of any size and putting it in a horizontal crack that fits well with that size. pull the trigger on the cam to the point where it would be secured in the imaginary crack. hold the trigger there and look at your fingers. you have one finger on each side of the trigger, so pull one finger back SLIGHTLY more than the other. this should give you a decent visual of what i mean.

and for this scenario, imagine the direction of pull being straight out.

i hope this clarifies exactly what i meant. and i know it is best to get a totally even fit, but in some spots i cant get it quite perfect, but fairly close.


notapplicable


Aug 31, 2011, 10:14 PM
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knubs wrote:
i did actually try to take pics but they didnt come out.

the cams are the c4's, and just imagine taking a c4 of any size and putting it in a horizontal crack that fits well with that size. pull the trigger on the cam to the point where it would be secured in the imaginary crack. hold the trigger there and look at your fingers. you have one finger on each side of the trigger, so pull one finger back SLIGHTLY more than the other. this should give you a decent visual of what i mean.

and for this scenario, imagine the direction of pull being straight out.

i hope this clarifies exactly what i meant. and i know it is best to get a totally even fit, but in some spots i cant get it quite perfect, but fairly close.

Generally speaking the type of placement you are talking about is perfectly fine. The cams are designed with independent lobe articulation in mind and will hold fine when they are not all parallel. Just remember that the smaller the cam, the less margin for error you will have. Be sure to doublecheck the direction of pull and equalization in your anchor and you're good.

*Disclaimer* - Gear placements protecting a lead climb require more care, for a number of reasons.


knubs


Aug 31, 2011, 10:21 PM
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notapplicable wrote:
The cams are designed with independent lobe articulation in mind and will hold fine when they are not all parallel.

cool, that was my logic! thanks!


(This post was edited by knubs on Aug 31, 2011, 10:22 PM)


billl7


Sep 1, 2011, 4:54 AM
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Re: [knubs] cam placements [In reply to]
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knubs wrote:
... just imagine taking a c4 of any size and putting it in a horizontal crack that fits well with that size. pull the trigger on the cam to the point where it would be secured in the imaginary crack. hold the trigger there and look at your fingers. you have one finger on each side of the trigger, so pull one finger back SLIGHTLY more than the other. this should give you a decent visual of what i mean.

and for this scenario, imagine the direction of pull being straight out.

Sounds good to me. Each pair of lobes is symmetrically / equally deployed.

Flaring cracks haven't come up yet in this thread. Watch for those. Where the lobes meet the rock, the rock at those contact points should ideally be parallal to the stem (and the directionof pull).

Lastly, top-roping on gear anchors cycles one or more of the cams, for example. Things can move and cams can walk around into less than ideal configuration. Check them periodically and more frequently if you are at all unsure of the placement.

Bill L


Rudmin


Sep 1, 2011, 5:18 AM
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90% of the time, top rope anchors have a tree or boulder around. If I was building a gear top rope anchor, I would prefer to have the load entirely on stoppers which are great for downward pull and less likely to move around. If I had a cam in, it would be more for upward pull (like someone standing up at the top), or as a backup.


bearbreeder


Sep 1, 2011, 5:55 AM
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i think you need to have someone show you how to place trad gear ... the internet is no substitute

free beer n gas goes a long way to finding someone
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killingmorethancancer


Sep 1, 2011, 6:15 AM
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Cams are pretty bomber man. They dont have to be perfect everytime. Big things to look for.

Expansion Range
Rock quality
Flare of crack

its always great it you can find a kind of pod to not only allow camming to take place but also constriction like a wire.

And dont sit and rip on the cam! They are rated for dynamic forces sitting and pulling static loads one your gear is no good man.


mckbill


Sep 1, 2011, 7:26 AM
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Passive gear (nuts / hexes) are more reliable for TR and are less attractive to a gear thief. Best to sling a tree or boulder with webbing in combination with passive gear. Reserve your cams for leading, which is probably what you're going to do eventually.


vencido


Sep 1, 2011, 10:44 AM
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Basically, evaluate each pair of cams. If one pair is very compressed and the other is only moderately compressed life is good.

The thing you should watch out for in these placements is that each lobe in a pair is compressed about the same as the other lobe. If they are not, in most placements you just need to pull the trigger again and let them come in contact with the rock at the same time.

Pushing a cam into a placement can exacerbate this problem.


blueeyedclimber


Sep 1, 2011, 11:25 AM
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Re: [Rudmin] cam placements [In reply to]
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Rudmin wrote:
90% of the time, top rope anchors have a tree or boulder around.

And where exactly are you getting your statistics?

In reply to:
If I was building a gear top rope anchor, I would prefer to have the load entirely on stoppers which are great for downward pull and less likely to move around.

Gear placement is about selecting the correct piece for the job whether it's a nut, a cam, a hex, natural pro, etc. Any piece can be great for downward pull. A well placed cam is no more likely to move around then a nut.

In reply to:
If I had a cam in, it would be more for upward pull (like someone standing up at the top), or as a backup.

What?

Josh


Rudmin


Sep 1, 2011, 11:56 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] cam placements [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
90% of the time, top rope anchors have a tree or boulder around.

And where exactly are you getting your statistics?

In reply to:
If I was building a gear top rope anchor, I would prefer to have the load entirely on stoppers which are great for downward pull and less likely to move around.

Gear placement is about selecting the correct piece for the job whether it's a nut, a cam, a hex, natural pro, etc. Any piece can be great for downward pull. A well placed cam is no more likely to move around then a nut.

In reply to:
If I had a cam in, it would be more for upward pull (like someone standing up at the top), or as a backup.

What?

Josh

Rather than multiquote, I'll just put it in order:

a) Personal experience. Also generally based on the fact that the top of a climb is typically where the cliff face ends and things become more horizontal. This is the kind of place where trees tend to grow and boulders come to rest. I also forgot to add bolts as the third likely anchoring point.

b) I disagree. Even a well placed cam will move if you cyclically load it with body weightand release it from even slightly different directions. Repeat this enough and you risk a stuck cam or a cam that falls out. A well placed nut in a constriction won't. I would not be happy with an anchor built of cams that is out of sight and being used repetitively.

c) If I were to use a cam in an anchor, it would be as a back up piece (not weighted), so that it doesn't get pulled around every time someone weights and unweights the rope. One reason you might want a cam backup is if your other anchor pieces are nuts and could pull out if the climber stood up above the anchor and pulled it upwards.


blueeyedclimber


Sep 1, 2011, 12:04 PM
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Re: [Rudmin] cam placements [In reply to]
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Rudmin wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
90% of the time, top rope anchors have a tree or boulder around.

And where exactly are you getting your statistics?

In reply to:
If I was building a gear top rope anchor, I would prefer to have the load entirely on stoppers which are great for downward pull and less likely to move around.

Gear placement is about selecting the correct piece for the job whether it's a nut, a cam, a hex, natural pro, etc. Any piece can be great for downward pull. A well placed cam is no more likely to move around then a nut.

In reply to:
If I had a cam in, it would be more for upward pull (like someone standing up at the top), or as a backup.

What?

Josh

Rather than multiquote, I'll just put it in order:

a) Personal experience. Also generally based on the fact that the top of a climb is typically where the cliff face ends and things become more horizontal. This is the kind of place where trees tend to grow and boulders come to rest. I also forgot to add bolts as the third likely anchoring point.

b) I disagree. Even a well placed cam will move if you cyclically load it with body weightand release it from even slightly different directions. Repeat this enough and you risk a stuck cam or a cam that falls out. A well placed nut in a constriction won't. I would not be happy with an anchor built of cams that is out of sight and being used repetitively.

c) If I were to use a cam in an anchor, it would be as a back up piece (not weighted), so that it doesn't get pulled around every time someone weights and unweights the rope. One reason you might want a cam backup is if your other anchor pieces are nuts and could pull out if the climber stood up above the anchor and pulled it upwards.

a) percentages and statistics do not come from one persons experience.

b) and c) This just shows you neither have the knowledge or experience with cams. You don't always get perfect constrictions. Sometimes a nut is better, sometimes it's a cam. Just because you don't trust cams, doesn't mean you are giving good advice. Why would you place a cam as a back up if you don't want it weighted. That sounds silly.

Josh


Rudmin


Sep 1, 2011, 12:06 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] cam placements [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why would you place a cam as a back up if you don't want it weighted. That sounds silly.

Josh

Because I wouldn't want it weighted repetitively - top roped on.


blueeyedclimber


Sep 1, 2011, 12:11 PM
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Rudmin wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why would you place a cam as a back up if you don't want it weighted. That sounds silly.

Josh

Because I wouldn't want it weighted repetitively - top roped on.

Because you don't trust them. We get it.


Partner cracklover


Sep 1, 2011, 1:24 PM
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knubs wrote:
one side of the cam is always opened a little more. is this bad?

No.

GO


knubs


Sep 1, 2011, 2:29 PM
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well, i live in joshua tree, CA, and we dont have trees, so that eliminates that option. i have found a couple routes with decent boulders that i've used, but for the most part all the routes i do consist of medium-large parallel cracks where only cams tend to work. i do get in a hex or nut occasionally (i dont own them but my friends do) when i can though.

and just fyi, i have one hand and i dont really plan on ever leading. also for TR'ing, i always check on the anchors very frequently. so far i've never had anything move. i usually climb with my friends who are very experienced, but i wanted to get an opinion from more people before i put my life on something


(This post was edited by knubs on Sep 1, 2011, 2:31 PM)


gunkiemike


Sep 1, 2011, 4:17 PM
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Re: [billl7] cam placements [In reply to]
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billl7 wrote:

Lastly, top-roping on gear anchors cycles one or more of the cams, for example. Things can move and cams can walk around into less than ideal configuration.
Bill L

Walking of cams is not associated with cyclic loading, but rather with stem movement. With properly oriented camming units, this is not a significant concern for TR anchor gear.


gunkiemike


Sep 1, 2011, 4:22 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] cam placements [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Why would you place a cam as a back up if you don't want it weighted. That sounds silly.

Josh

Because in rudmin's world, a cam only holds the first time it's weighted.


billl7


Sep 1, 2011, 4:48 PM
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Re: [gunkiemike] cam placements [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
billl7 wrote:

Lastly, top-roping on gear anchors cycles one or more of the cams, for example. Things can move and cams can walk around into less than ideal configuration.
Bill L

Walking of cams is not associated with cyclic loading, but rather with stem movement. With properly oriented camming units, this is not a significant concern for TR anchor gear.

Agreed. I'm being a little sloppy with the terms I'm using in that "cycle" was too narrow of a term. At the same time, even a perfectly aligned cam bears checking from time to time ...

Some of us milk top ropes for all they have by climbing above the anchor a little. That could move a cam.

I'm not trying to save face. It's a concern I've always had about TR anchors (edit: built of gear placements). Have it set in my mind they always warrant periodic checks ... just forgetting all the reasoning behind that.

Thanks for pointing it out!

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 1, 2011, 4:49 PM)


wanderlustmd


Sep 1, 2011, 4:58 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] cam placements [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
90% of the time, top rope anchors have a tree or boulder around.

And where exactly are you getting your statistics?

In reply to:
If I was building a gear top rope anchor, I would prefer to have the load entirely on stoppers which are great for downward pull and less likely to move around.

Gear placement is about selecting the correct piece for the job whether it's a nut, a cam, a hex, natural pro, etc. Any piece can be great for downward pull. A well placed cam is no more likely to move around then a nut.

In reply to:
If I had a cam in, it would be more for upward pull (like someone standing up at the top), or as a backup.

What?

Josh
Laugh


mikebarter387


Sep 3, 2011, 8:10 AM
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Here is a little more info for you.

http://youtu.be/QL1wRnov_d4


knubs


Sep 3, 2011, 3:01 PM
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Re: [mikebarter387] cam placements [In reply to]
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thanks. he makes some great videos and i think i've seen them all. i loved his video on vector angles as well. that made me think about some things a little differently after i first saw it


climbingtrash


Sep 9, 2011, 6:34 AM
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knubs wrote:
thanks. he makes some great videos and i think i've seen them all. i loved his video on vector angles as well. that made me think about some things a little differently after i first saw it

You know, you're replying to the "he" in the videos. Wink

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