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terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee
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dave76


Sep 14, 2011, 9:16 AM
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terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee
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Hi all,
This may sound very basic, but as I've been climbing mostly in Italy and France, my names for techniques are mostly in Italian and French, that is ;).

So I just wanted to figure out what exactly each of these terms refers to.

In case some of you speaks french, I am going to put the names I use here.

I used to think the drop knee would be a lolotte, and the backstep a "carre externe". Basically the difference being the following. Say you have a right handhold. In a lolotte, your body is twisted with your left hip to the wall, your weight is on the right foot, on a hold somewhere underneath the handhold and to the left of it, and the left foot is instead further to the left, pushing your body to the right, thereby maintaining the locked-off position and freeing your left hand.

In the carre externe, the configuration is similar but your left foot is not pushing sideways but down as usual. Your weight is either on both feet, or only on the left foot, with the right foot hanging, depending on the configuration of the rock.
I used to think the name for carre externe was backstep, but now that I've read about the twistlock, I tend to say it's more appropriate to call it so.

But then what is the backstep?

thanks ;)


lena_chita
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Sep 14, 2011, 9:57 AM
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Re: [dave76] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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Lollote is a drop-knee.

Backstep is simply using the outside edge of your foot on the hold--think about it as taking "a step back".

When you do a drop knee, the foot of the back leg with the bent knee is back-stepping. The difference between backstepping and drop-knee is what is happening to your knee. And usually you don't get into a drop-knee from a backstep, you usually step first with your knee facing out/up, and then you twist the knee down, in other words 'drop it'.

Carre Externe is a flag, I think, at least that is how I've heard it used, but the word externe makes me think that it is outside flag.

Normal flag is when the flagging foot stays on it's own side of the body, the legs are not crossed. E.i. if you are flagging with the right foot, it is extended to the right of your midline.

If you are flagging with the right foot, but extending it to the left of your midline, then it is a reverse flag (reverse outside flag if the foot that is flagging is behind the foot that is on a foothold, and reverse inside flag if the foot that is flagging is crossed inside, between the rock face and the foot that is on the foothold). I've heard the term 'cancan' used by French speakers for reverse inside flag.

Again, when you are flagging, with normal flag, the other foot, the one that is not flagging, could often be in the backstep position, but it doesn't have to be.


dave76


Sep 14, 2011, 12:55 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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Thanks Lena!
So back stepping is just putting the foot that way, not how your whole body is turned. Makes sense ;).

However, I am pretty sure now that carre externe is a twist lock or rather a hipturn that may or may not lead into a twist-lock position.
If I got it right that a hipturn is the act of turning and twistlock is the position when you're locked in a stable stance.
Does it make sense?

As for flags, I am not sure what the French call them.

In Italian it is:

flag: bilanciamento
outside flag: bilanciamento esterno
inside flag: bilanciamento interno

hipturn/twistlock: posizione laterale
drop-knee: lolotte


lena_chita
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Sep 14, 2011, 1:27 PM
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Re: [dave76] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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Well, with flagging you often have one hip turned into the wall, so it is maybe the same thing as what you are calling hipturn, but like I said, I was not sure about carre externe.

I found this:
http://i.maka.free.fr/gestes.htm

The picture of carre externe that they show there make it look like a flag, but they talk about turning the hip in, and not so much about the extended leg that is used as counter-balance, which is the main point of a flag.


dave76


Sep 14, 2011, 2:16 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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I guess that what makes it a carre externe is turning. Then you can flag or have both your feet on holds, depending on the holds.

I guess the corresponding term in English is hipturn then, isn't it?


ghisino


Sep 15, 2011, 4:30 AM
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Re: [dave76] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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carre externe=outside edge (of the shoe)

what makes it carre externe is that his main foot (the one which is pushing on a foothold) is placed on the outside edge.




btw as a non-native englis speaker i'm confused by the flag.
I've always understood that you flag when you push with a foot on the opposite side than the hand which is reaching.
(eg, i'm reaching with my right hand and push with my left foot, while my right leg flags)

now i have no english term for when you push with one foot on the same side of the reach and the foot is on its outside edge. Probably the most common move on overhanging terrain. Still a flag?.
(if it's on the inside edge it's a rockover , am i right?)


(This post was edited by ghisino on Sep 15, 2011, 4:37 AM)


lena_chita
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Sep 15, 2011, 7:36 AM
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Re: [ghisino] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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Flag is when one leg is extended to use as a counter-balance. The foot of that leg could be touching the rock, or the entire leg could be free-hanging. But even if the foot is touching the rock, you aren't STEPPING on a foothold with a flagging foot/leg. It is more like pressing into the rock wherever your foot happens to be, for balance.

Depending on whether the flagging leg is extended to one side, or to the other, these flags have different sub-names (regular flag, or outside flag, or inside flag, etc.) but as long as you are using the leg as counter-balance, it is flagging.


jt512


Sep 15, 2011, 12:22 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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Inisde flag



Outside flag



Backstep flag




Source: The Self-Coached Climber by D. Hague and D. Hunter (2006)


ghisino


Sep 16, 2011, 3:10 AM
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Re: [jt512] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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awesome


damienclimber


Sep 21, 2011, 12:17 AM
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Re: [dave76] terminology: twist-lock - backstep - drop knee [In reply to]
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dave76 wrote:
Hi all,
This may sound very basic, but as I've been climbing mostly in Italy and France, my names for techniques are mostly in Italian and French, that is ;).

So I just wanted to figure out what exactly each of these terms refers to.

In case some of you speaks french, I am going to put the names I use here.

I used to think the drop knee would be a lolotte, and the backstep a "carre externe". Basically the difference being the following. Say you have a right handhold. In a lolotte, your body is twisted with your left hip to the wall, your weight is on the right foot, on a hold somewhere underneath the handhold and to the left of it, and the left foot is instead further to the left, pushing your body to the right, thereby maintaining the locked-off position and freeing your left hand.

In the carre externe, the configuration is similar but your left foot is not pushing sideways but down as usual. Your weight is either on both feet, or only on the left foot, with the right foot hanging, depending on the configuration of the rock.
I used to think the name for carre externe was backstep, but now that I've read about the twistlock, I tend to say it's more appropriate to call it so.

But then what is the backstep?

thanks ;)

ewe. too bad jacques, and marcel are missing this.
I bet they would enjoy it so.


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