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Allfred
Sep 20, 2011, 5:04 AM
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I don't know enough about the Israel Palestine crap. Never really cared too much, but sort of always wondered why we (USA) cares that much about it.
Seems like Israel is the bad actor here. They don't abide (duude) by the UN resolution on their boarders.
discuss?
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skiclimb
Sep 20, 2011, 7:22 AM
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Both parties are bad actors. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Hard to have peace when the people with the power don't want peace.
Not that complicated really.
Simply put with the current leaders on both sides there will be no peace and the powerless will suffer for it.
As far as statehood? How can the UN admit a new nation who's government (Hamas) has as one of it's main planks the eradication of it's neighbor state?
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 20, 2011, 7:25 AM)
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hugepedro
Sep 20, 2011, 7:49 AM
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skiclimb wrote: As far as statehood? How can the UN admit a new nation who's government (Hamas) has as one of it's main planks the eradication of it's neighbor state?
Make the removal of that plank a condition of statehood. It's not a serious threat anyway, just a political tool for the extremists.
I agree with you that the leadership on both sides are bad actors, they use conflict and violence to preserve their power, but Israel holds the most cards, they could change the situation if they wan't to, whereas the Palestinians could not.
Probably not a chance that the UN will grant unilateral statehood, but if they did it would remove the source of radicalization for Palestinians and begin the journey toward normal, civilized politics. It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors.
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Allfred
Sep 20, 2011, 8:24 AM
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hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors.
That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about.
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ubu
Sep 20, 2011, 4:53 PM
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Allfred wrote: hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors. That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about.
Here's your answer:
Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’
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skiclimb
Sep 20, 2011, 5:46 PM
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ubu wrote: Allfred wrote: hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors. That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about. Here's your answer: Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’
Yep thats about it, you can't underestimate the seriousness here and how much it really does form our policy in this Area.
Now I am a christian. As far as i can read the scriptures it simply states that ALL nations will war against Israel at the end of times (somewhere within that poorly defined event period anyway)
If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct.
Another example of poor attention to scripture is clear in mainstream christian conservative thinking.
Short of war I don't see anything in scripture saying you can't be critical or hold Israel to account for their actions.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 20, 2011, 5:49 PM)
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petsfed
Sep 20, 2011, 9:55 PM
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ubu wrote: Allfred wrote: hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors. That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about. Here's your answer: Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’
Specifically, the sooner we see the conversion of Israel to Christianity, the sooner the apocalypse can occur. And I really fuckin' wish I could make this kind of crazy shit up.
Couple that with a strong lingering guilt over the holocaust but only so strong as to prevent another Jewish genocide (if you're not white AND Jewish, most of the western world has more important tasks that go by various euphemisms for "jack off until an abrasion sore develops"), and you've got a lot of irrationally pro-Israeli types calling the foreign policy shots.
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damienclimber
Sep 21, 2011, 12:47 AM
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skiclimb wrote: ubu wrote: Allfred wrote: hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors. That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about. Here's your answer: Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’Yep thats about it, you can't underestimate the seriousness here and how much it really does form our policy in this Area. Now I am a christian. As far as i can read the scriptures it simply states that ALL nations will war against Israel at the end of times (somewhere within that poorly defined event period anyway) If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. Another example of poor attention to scripture is clear in mainstream christian conservative thinking. Short of war I don't see anything in scripture saying you can't be critical or hold Israel to account for their actions.
well you should read alot more.
Who are the chosen people?
who won the war?
who are the terrorists? who was there first?
reading is a good diversion over the internet, and instead of skiing and climbing.
I suppose you believe in heaven, hell and jesus is the messiah, son of god, and adam and eve too?
there is so much info , and I'm not going to spoon feed someone history that actually is written in books.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
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blondgecko
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Sep 21, 2011, 3:10 AM
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skiclimb wrote: If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct.
No it won't. It will merely let you know that all nations are at war with Israel (and that Israel is therefore about to become a smoking hole in the ground).
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skiclimb
Sep 21, 2011, 7:30 AM
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blondgecko wrote: skiclimb wrote: If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. No it won't. It will merely let you know that all nations are at war with Israel (and that Israel is therefore about to become a smoking hole in the ground).
lol fair point. But technically I'd still have to say that particular scripture would then be correct.
The part where I think it says Israel wins would be incorrect in your scenario
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 21, 2011, 7:54 AM)
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rrrADAM
Sep 21, 2011, 7:41 AM
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skiclimb wrote: ubu wrote: Allfred wrote: hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors. That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about. Here's your answer: Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’Yep thats about it, you can't underestimate the seriousness here and how much it really does form our policy in this Area. Now I am a christian. As far as i can read the scriptures it simply states that ALL nations will war against Israel at the end of times (somewhere within that poorly defined event period anyway) If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. Another example of poor attention to scripture is clear in mainstream christian conservative thinking. Short of war I don't see anything in scripture saying you can't be critical or hold Israel to account for their actions.
There's a bit more to it... Many RNJ's believe that Israel must be a nation, with all the land God gave them intact, in order for Jesus to return... Thus, giving any land away will mean Jesus won't come back, IAW their beliefs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 21, 2011, 7:42 AM)
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skiclimb
Sep 21, 2011, 7:45 AM
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damienclimber wrote: skiclimb wrote: ubu wrote: Allfred wrote: hugepedro wrote: . It's too bad the pro-Israel-at-all-costs voters hold our country hostage to extremism. In my book, those people are traitors. That's one of the parts I don't understand. Are they that way because they are jews? Are they that way because they are crazy christians? Why is Isreal such an important domestic topic? Seems to me like something only a few east coast states care about. Here's your answer: Perry’s Theocratic Foreign Policy: ‘As A Christian I Have A Clear Directive To Support Israel’Yep thats about it, you can't underestimate the seriousness here and how much it really does form our policy in this Area. Now I am a christian. As far as i can read the scriptures it simply states that ALL nations will war against Israel at the end of times (somewhere within that poorly defined event period anyway) If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. Another example of poor attention to scripture is clear in mainstream christian conservative thinking. Short of war I don't see anything in scripture saying you can't be critical or hold Israel to account for their actions. well you should read alot more. Who are the chosen people? who won the war? who are the terrorists? who was there first? reading is a good diversion over the internet, and instead of skiing and climbing. I suppose you believe in heaven, hell and jesus is the messiah, son of god, and adam and eve too? there is so much info , and I'm not going to spoon feed someone history that actually is written in books. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
oi.. Yes I choose to believe a few things are easily argued against rationally. You are not pointing out anything I'm not familiar with. :)
And Adam is spot on pointing out another reason for our over support of everything Isreal does. It's at best a childish immature form of Christianity.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Sep 21, 2011, 7:48 AM)
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rrrADAM
Sep 21, 2011, 9:12 AM
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Well, unfortunately, those "childish immature form of Christianity" types have a lot of influence... To the detriment of our national policy, education, medicine, sciene funding, social issues, and the list goes on...
See above for the current front runner of the GOP for his theocratic ideas... And remember that Texas is leading the pack backwards in our education, all because of those who adhere to that "childish immature form of Christianity".
That "childish immature form of Christianity" is most likely our biggest obstacle to enlightenment as a nation... And as a race, if you consider all those [religions] who try to get all to live by the rules they believe their imaginary friend wants them to live by. It IS a ball and chain that impedes our progress.
(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Sep 21, 2011, 10:38 AM)
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dan2see
Sep 22, 2011, 12:00 PM
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There are two major issues of concern:
1. Statehood for Palestine.
2. Peace with Israel.
You should not confuse these issues.
A lot of folks require "conditions" such as settled boundaries, and policies on international relations. But these conditions do not change how Palestine can govern its people or infrastructure.
The first priority for a Palestine government, nation or not, is the ability to make its decisions on matters that affect them, and the power to carry out their policies. That is autonomy and self-government. And this should be recognized by Israel, too. But with the shrinking boundaries and hostile borders, it's been hell.
So now, finally, after all these years, it's time to recognize Palestine as a state and allow them to move into the present.
Then you can work on those "conditions". Who knows? They might be good neighbours, if everybody lets them.
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potreroed
Sep 24, 2011, 12:40 PM
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blondgecko wrote: skiclimb wrote: If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. No it won't. It will merely let you know that all nations are at war with Israel (and that Israel is therefore about to become a smoking hole in the ground).
Nah, Israel knows how to defend itself. They are miles ahead of their enemies in defense and are not afraid to be pro-active if it becomes necessary.
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veganclimber
Sep 24, 2011, 1:41 PM
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potreroed wrote: blondgecko wrote: skiclimb wrote: If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. No it won't. It will merely let you know that all nations are at war with Israel (and that Israel is therefore about to become a smoking hole in the ground). Nah, Israel knows how to defend itself. They are miles ahead of their enemies in defense and are not afraid to be pro-active if it becomes necessary.
They could defend themselves if every nation in the world attacked them?
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I_do
Sep 25, 2011, 1:56 AM
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potreroed wrote: blondgecko wrote: skiclimb wrote: If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. No it won't. It will merely let you know that all nations are at war with Israel (and that Israel is therefore about to become a smoking hole in the ground). Nah, Israel knows how to defend itself. They are miles ahead of their enemies in defense and are not afraid to be pro-active if it becomes necessary.
They are also not afraid to be "proactive"when it's not nessecary...
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rrrADAM
Sep 25, 2011, 11:48 AM
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veganclimber wrote: potreroed wrote: blondgecko wrote: skiclimb wrote: If I ever see all nations at war with Israel this will merely let me know that the scripture is correct. No it won't. It will merely let you know that all nations are at war with Israel (and that Israel is therefore about to become a smoking hole in the ground). Nah, Israel knows how to defend itself. They are miles ahead of their enemies in defense and are not afraid to be pro-active if it becomes necessary. They could defend themselves if every nation in the world attacked them?
Hell yea... They have God on their side... Remember what he did to Egypt, back in the day? He will smite their enemies. Heck, he even made the sun stand still for a day so his chosen people could "defend themselves" (I.e., slaughter their enemies)... Suspending the laws of motion and gravity!!!
They CANNOT lose, if God doesn't want them to.
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pinktricam
Sep 25, 2011, 1:51 PM
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Good point.
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robbovius
Sep 26, 2011, 4:17 AM
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rrrADAM wrote: pinktricam wrote: Good point. [image]http://dudelol.com/img/joke-went-over-your-head.gif[/image]
Oh c'mon, you KNEW he was going to take that last sentence seriously. ;-)
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pinktricam
Sep 26, 2011, 5:41 AM
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rrrADAM wrote: pinktricam wrote: Good point. 
*chuckle*
Backatcha.
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