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rocker1525


Sep 23, 2011, 11:21 PM
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Anchor question
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Is it possible to hammer down a 2 metal steaks into the ground s couple feet and anchor off of that? If so how deep is safe? Should it be put at an angle facing away from the climb? How thick or what kind of metal is best?
I only ask this question because there is no other way to make an anchor at this face, unless I bolt it and I am no where near ready to do that. Thank you and any information is appreciated.


knubs


Sep 24, 2011, 12:41 AM
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Re: [rocker1525] Anchor question [In reply to]
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first off, what is the anchor for? belay anchor? climbing anchor? rope solo anchor? etc..


rocker1525


Sep 24, 2011, 1:27 AM
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This would be for top rope


sbaclimber


Sep 24, 2011, 2:00 AM
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Re: [rocker1525] Anchor question [In reply to]
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rocker1525 wrote:
Is it possible to hammer down a 2 metal steaks into the ground s couple feet and anchor off of that?
yes
rocker1525 wrote:
If so how deep is safe?
That depends... "Safe" is a very relative term when dealing with stakes anyway.Pirate

rocker1525 wrote:
Should it be put at an angle facing away from the climb?
no

rocker1525 wrote:
How thick or what kind of metal is best?
The thickest and strongest you can afford. Tongue


binrat


Sep 24, 2011, 4:36 AM
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Look towards the bottom. replace wood stakes with your metal ones.
http://www.tpub.com/celec/78.htm


ablanchard17


Sep 24, 2011, 2:19 PM
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Personally I would never do this.

I can see the possibility of cyclical loading shifting the stakes and pulling them out. it would be much better to use a tree if there are any around.


uni_jim


Sep 24, 2011, 4:20 PM
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it has been done, but it's not going to inspire a ton of confidence in me.


TarHeelEMT


Sep 24, 2011, 5:01 PM
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It is done, although not often by climbers in this country. I did it earlier this weekend for a rescue setup.

Be aware that there is most definitely a right way to do it, and lots of ways that are really dangerous. The best place to read about it might actually be a fire and rescue manual. The best would be to have someone who uses them regularly demonstrate the setup with you.


binrat


Sep 24, 2011, 5:10 PM
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uni_jim wrote:
it has been done, but it's not going to inspire a ton of confidence in me.
+1


binrat


Sep 24, 2011, 5:12 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote:
Be aware that there is most definitely a right way to do it, and lots of ways that are really dangerous. The best place to read about it might actually be a fire and rescue manual. The best would be to have someone who uses them regularly demonstrate the setup with you.
Maybe a combat engineer's rigging manual as well.


acorneau


Sep 24, 2011, 7:24 PM
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There is some very good information and actual test examples for stakes on this website:

http://www.bolt-products.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

Go down to the section called "Stakes", which is about 9 screen-pages down.


JimTitt


Sep 25, 2011, 3:37 AM
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Of course itīs o.k. It is standard practice on most of the sea-cliff climbing areas in the U.K. and has worked without any incident for the last 50 years or so.
Using stakes has also been standard procedure for the coastguard cliff rescue teams for generations.

What to use- it depends. Cheap and reasonably longlasting is 1" galvanised water pipe or 1" rebar, better and longer lasting are scaffold pot logs which are reasonably cheap.
If the subsoil is very rocky then buck-rake tines are brilliant, sometimes you can get broken ones from a local farmer. Angle iron is o.k but rusts fairly quickly so has fallen out of favour for sea cliffs.
All of the above are traditionally used singly in the U.K. and go about 2 to 3 feet in.

You need a large sledgehammer!

An alternative if fixed gear is a problem or if the bedrock is not far down preventing stakes being used is earth Abalakov belays. You make these by cutting a U shaped slit in the turf about 3 or 4 inches deep and 2 to 3 feet diameter and lay a length of flexible pipe (normally the black plastic irrigation pipe) in the bottom, refill the slit and leave for a season until the turf has grown back. Then when you need a belay you merely thread with a length of rope which is easily repaceable and there you are.

Jim


billcoe_


Sep 25, 2011, 8:05 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
Of course itīs o.k. It is standard practice on most of the sea-cliff climbing areas in the U.K. and has worked without any incident for the last 50 years or so.
Using stakes has also been standard procedure for the coastguard cliff rescue teams for generations.

What to use- it depends. Cheap and reasonably longlasting is 1" galvanised water pipe or 1" rebar, better and longer lasting are scaffold pot logs which are reasonably cheap.
If the subsoil is very rocky then buck-rake tines are brilliant, sometimes you can get broken ones from a local farmer. Angle iron is o.k but rusts fairly quickly so has fallen out of favour for sea cliffs.
All of the above are traditionally used singly in the U.K. and go about 2 to 3 feet in.

You need a large sledgehammer!

An alternative if fixed gear is a problem or if the bedrock is not far down preventing stakes being used is earth Abalakov belays. You make these by cutting a U shaped slit in the turf about 3 or 4 inches deep and 2 to 3 feet diameter and lay a length of flexible pipe (normally the black plastic irrigation pipe) in the bottom, refill the slit and leave for a season until the turf has grown back. Then when you need a belay you merely thread with a length of rope which is easily repaceable and there you are.

Jim

This is an awesome post, much better than I was thinking of posting which is that they do it in England. However, I would add that if you have never done this, seen it done, and don't have someone with you who has done it: then you are on uncharted ground and need to be damned careful rocker. You don't say what your experience or skill set is, so I'd overkill what you think is strong enough until you really feel you have it mastered.


tolman_paul


Sep 28, 2011, 4:39 PM
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Re: [rocker1525] Anchor question [In reply to]
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Just curious how you could be no where near ready to place bolts as anchors, but somehow you figure you'll have the skills to drive stakes into the ground to accomplish the same thing?

Either you have the skills to analize what needs to be done and the tools to accomplish it, or you don't. Whether bolts or stakes, it matters not.

There is alot of litterature out there on how to place bolts, and place them properly, as well as testing on suitable and unsuitable bolts. I haven't come across anything on how one evaluates soil and the quality of sewer pipe, fence posts et al.

Seriously, learn how to bolt and do it properly, or leave it to others. IMHO it's easier to judge whether or not rock is sound than soil.


billl7


Sep 28, 2011, 4:50 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Anchor question [In reply to]
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I've never drilled/placed a bolt in my life nor have I learned how. Without any further training at all (by reading or listening) ...

I have tons more confidence that I could tell when a stake is set deep enough with a big sledge hammer than when a bolt is gripping well enough in a short hole by turning a nut.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Sep 28, 2011, 4:51 PM)


sandstone


Sep 28, 2011, 6:40 PM
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I've used stakes several times. They were absolutely bomber -- very confidence inspiring.

I used two stakes each time, spaced ~2ft apart. I didn't notice any movement of the stakes at all after repeated loading. I got the feeling I could have safely lowered my truck off the cliff from this anchor.

I used steel angle (1 1/2" or 2"), about 24-30" long. I don't have a measurement on how far I drove them in, but it was probably at least 20". I used a short handled sledgehammer, which is the minimum you'll need, a carpenters or piton hammer won't cut it.

When you are done, either take the stakes out or drive them down well below the surface and leave them hidden there to rust away. Don't abandon them, leaving them sticking out of the ground.

This is especially important if there is any chance of machine traffic (ATV's, motorcycles, farm machines, logging or drilling machinery, etc.) in the area. My father was almost killed when a fragment of a rotary hay cutter blade hit him. We later figured out that there was once a power pole in the field he was cutting, but the power company had neglected to remove the ground rod when they had removed the pole. The cutter blade hit the ground rod (which was sticking out of the ground a few inches, completely hidden by the tall grass), breaking off about a 1" triangle of hardened steel, which glanced off dad's skull.


acorneau


Oct 4, 2011, 5:38 AM
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JimTitt wrote:
An alternative if fixed gear is a problem or if the bedrock is not far down preventing stakes being used is earth Abalakov belays.

Hey Jim,

Since you mention an Abalakov as an alternative, has anyone tried out a snow fluke setup in sod/soil?




JimTitt


Oct 4, 2011, 11:00 AM
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We tried lots of things in the early days including these, alloy deadmen canīt take the rocks in the ground nor the big hammer on top and getting a slit for the wire is a problem. Probably great for a cliff with a swamp or sand dunes at the top!
Snow stakes are good but horribly pricey so we went over to alloy tee section instead, boat toe-rail extrusion is perfect and offcuts cheap or free. Two of these is what my brother uses for temporary ab points.

Jim


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