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guangzhou


Oct 5, 2011, 8:37 PM
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CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."


traddad


Oct 5, 2011, 8:44 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

Like Goldman Sachs?

"If you're rich it's not your fault you're a member of the lucky sperm club."

Remember: It's only class warfare if the shots come from below.


(This post was edited by traddad on Oct 5, 2011, 8:47 PM)


guangzhou


Oct 5, 2011, 10:06 PM
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traddad wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

Like Goldman Sachs?

"If you're rich it's not your fault you're a member of the lucky sperm club."

Remember: It's only class warfare if the shots come from below.

While some people are born in wealth, many start at the bottom of the economic scale and work their way up it. Also, being born rich doesn't mean you stay rich.

In this case, people are blaming banks, big business, and government for having no money, but they need to look at how they lived their life even when the economy was strong. Instead of living within their means, they used credit they couldn't repay, houses that were to big, and saved no money. Now, they're complaining saying banks made it to easy for me to use credit and barrow money.

We make choices, we have have to live with the outcome. What do I know, I was against the bailout when the government did it. I did invest in many of the companies that were getting bailout money because I figure my investment would make some returns fairly quickly, and they did.

Now we have some 40 year old guys complaining that even his College degree in Woman's Studies, which he probably took to pick up girls in collge, he can't get a job.


veganclimber


Oct 6, 2011, 5:49 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
In this case, people are blaming banks, big business, and government for having no money,

Why do you think fucked up the economy in the first place?

In reply to:
but they need to look at how they lived their life even when the economy was strong. Instead of living within their means, they used credit they couldn't repay, houses that were to big, and saved no money. Now, they're complaining saying banks made it to easy for me to use credit and barrow money.

Clearly, that's what they were all doing. I'm sure none of them had jobs and lived responsibly before the economy went to hell.

In reply to:
We make choices, we have have to live with the outcome.

We also have to live with the results of the choices that other people make. Most of the people that are suffering because of the economy are not the ones that caused the problem in the first place. The ones that screwed everything up are all doing fine right now.

In reply to:
What do I know, I was against the bailout when the government did it. I did invest in many of the companies that were getting bailout money because I figure my investment would make some returns fairly quickly, and they did.

Good for you. I have no idea what this has to do with anything though.

In reply to:
Now we have some 40 year old guys complaining that even his College degree in Woman's Studies, which he probably took to pick up girls in collge, he can't get a job.

Why shouldn't he be able to find a job somewhere?


lena_chita
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Oct 6, 2011, 7:04 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

I don't have facts to back it up, but *I* happen to believe that whenever someone says (the bolded part), they are usually wrong. Tongue


traddad


Oct 6, 2011, 8:22 AM
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Herman Cain is Sarah Palin with better self control, spouting self righteous truisms and feel good bumper sticker TeaTard mythology. Is he a successful businessman? Yes. Did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps? Yes. Is he the model EVERYONE can or should emulate? UmÖno.

To somehow conflate the success of one businessman with the idea that anyone can and should do the same is naive and simplistic. Not everyone was born into the ďBrainy Sperm ClubĒ and can graduate from Purdue with a Masters in computer science. And even if youíre in the BSC, what if your true love IS English literature or Womenís Studies, or landscape ecology? Should those of us that pursued education in these areas expect to get really shitty pay so that those who chose accounting or finance can get more? Should we be OK with the fact that those that have money can buy undue influence in government? Should we be OK when the rich seek to further stack the deck against us by controlling the movement of capital? Should we allow the rich to fleece us simply because they are rich? The easiest way to become rich in America is NOT by inventing a new and needed product. The easiest way to become rich is to be rich in the first place.

America has become a corporate Oligarchy. It is now being completely run by the corporations that control the financial ďindustryĒ. A symbiotic corporate/government feedback loop has been created that is parasitic on the middle class.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 6, 2011, 9:26 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

I don't have facts to back it up, but *I* happen to believe that whenever someone says (the bolded part), they are usually wrong. Tongue


Re: the bold font...

Facts, smacts... Look at how many people believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and/or there is no such thing as evolution.



"Those that have convictions that are not arrived at by reason can not be unconvinced by reason ."
~Unknown

Or, cannot even be unconvinced by facts for that matter.


'Tis par for most Teapublicans.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Oct 6, 2011, 9:27 AM)


hugepedro


Oct 6, 2011, 9:41 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
CAIN: "I donít have facts to back this up, but I happen to believe that these demonstrations are planned and orchestrated to distract from the failed policies of the Obama administration. Donít blame Wall Street, donít blame the big banks, if you donít have a job and youíre not rich, blame yourself! It is not someoneís fault if they succeeded, it is someoneís fault if they failed."

Typical Republican, stupid opinion based on zero facts, and thinks he alone is responsible for his success.

Mythology of 'The American Dream'.

The fact is that of the modern economies, America is near the bottom of the list when it comes to upward social mobility. The idea that one can get ahead if they work hard is less reality in American than it is in other countries, because our government, aligned with big money, has implemented policies that are stacked against workers keeping the fruits off their labor, and our education system is stacked against the lower and middle classes.

In America, what you are born into plays a greater role in where you will end up. The American Dream is dead.

****Edited to add link to the facts that back up my statements.


http://www.oecd.org/...ecd/2/7/45002641.pdf


(This post was edited by hugepedro on Oct 6, 2011, 9:42 AM)


wjca


Oct 6, 2011, 11:30 AM
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traddad wrote:
Herman Cain is Sarah Palin with better self control, spouting self righteous truisms and feel good bumper sticker TeaTard mythology. Is he a successful businessman? Yes. Did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps? Yes. Is he the model EVERYONE can or should emulate? UmÖno.

To somehow conflate the success of one businessman with the idea that anyone can and should do the same is naive and simplistic. Not everyone was born into the ďBrainy Sperm ClubĒ and can graduate from Purdue with a Masters in computer science. And even if youíre in the BSC, what if your true love IS English literature or Womenís Studies, or landscape ecology? Should those of us that pursued education in these areas expect to get really shitty pay so that those who chose accounting or finance can get more? Should we be OK with the fact that those that have money can buy undue influence in government? Should we be OK when the rich seek to further stack the deck against us by controlling the movement of capital? Should we allow the rich to fleece us simply because they are rich? The easiest way to become rich in America is NOT by inventing a new and needed product. The easiest way to become rich is to be rich in the first place.

America has become a corporate Oligarchy. It is now being completely run by the corporations that control the financial ďindustryĒ. A symbiotic corporate/government feedback loop has been created that is parasitic on the middle class.


Are you saying that, regardless of the type of education one chooses to obtain, everyone should be paid the same for the different jobs that those educations would entail people to perform? If so, then that's just dumb.


hugepedro


Oct 6, 2011, 11:55 AM
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Another thoughtÖ.

I am all for individual responsibility. It is a great personal ethos, and I live by it myself.

The problem with how Republicans regard individual responsibility though, is that they want to substitute it for actually addressing systemic weaknesses in our society and our economy.

The irony isÖ.

That the well-off donít need our systemic problems to be fixed in order to succeed, nor does their own individual responsibility have as much bearing on where their station in life will end up as does their birth into money.

Whereas the poor, no matter how much individual responsibility they exercise, are not likely to succeed and achieve the American Dream if we donít correct the systemic problems in our society and economy.

So this attitude, of applying what is an individual ethos to what are systemic problems, actually prevents our country from advancing and being more economically vibrant and competitive in the global economy. People like Cain, and other Republicans, should be excoriated for such anti-American positions every time they say things like this that prevent our country from being more competitive.


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 6, 2011, 12:54 PM
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To me the real irony is...

In a nutshell, one can argue that the Republican way of doing things protects the rich and screws the poor, BUT, there aren't as many rich as poor, thus many of the poor vote Republican, screwing themselves.

Down where I am now, in the South (Red States), they generally all hate government spending, but it is they who have their hands out to the Fed and State asking for money much more so than do most Blue States. And, then they hate imigrants for being 'drains on the system'.

I do agree on the title of this thread:
"Accept responsibility for your choices"
But people need to look more at their choices in regards to where they are at, than focusing on the choices of others, as many of the poorly educated yet self righteous Reds choose to do.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Oct 6, 2011, 1:01 PM)


traddad


Oct 6, 2011, 5:09 PM
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wjca wrote:
traddad wrote:
Herman Cain is Sarah Palin with better self control, spouting self righteous truisms and feel good bumper sticker TeaTard mythology. Is he a successful businessman? Yes. Did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps? Yes. Is he the model EVERYONE can or should emulate? UmÖno.

To somehow conflate the success of one businessman with the idea that anyone can and should do the same is naive and simplistic. Not everyone was born into the ďBrainy Sperm ClubĒ and can graduate from Purdue with a Masters in computer science. And even if youíre in the BSC, what if your true love IS English literature or Womenís Studies, or landscape ecology? Should those of us that pursued education in these areas expect to get really shitty pay so that those who chose accounting or finance can get more? Should we be OK with the fact that those that have money can buy undue influence in government? Should we be OK when the rich seek to further stack the deck against us by controlling the movement of capital? Should we allow the rich to fleece us simply because they are rich? The easiest way to become rich in America is NOT by inventing a new and needed product. The easiest way to become rich is to be rich in the first place.

America has become a corporate Oligarchy. It is now being completely run by the corporations that control the financial ďindustryĒ. A symbiotic corporate/government feedback loop has been created that is parasitic on the middle class.


Are you saying that, regardless of the type of education one chooses to obtain, everyone should be paid the same for the different jobs that those educations would entail people to perform? If so, then that's just dumb.
What ever makes you think that? I mean really, nothing there could be construed to mean that...unless the reader had the political intellect of Sarah Palin. I just want people paid in line with the effort and skill that the endeavor requires. The money that many CEOs are getting paid is completely out of proportion to the value they bring. Especially when compared to their European counterparts.


guangzhou


Oct 6, 2011, 9:35 PM
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Plain and simple, even the poor can succeed and grow financially in America. I know this from personal experience.

My Mother migrated from with no English and three children to the U.S. Washing Dishes and renting out a single room in a three bedroom apartment, she work for a fast food taco restaurant. As she learned more English, she decided to help the restaurant with book keeping and then worked weekend in a department store. (All minimum wage jobs while the three of us went to school) To make end meet, my sister and I packed boxes for a clothing store, we we the only whites, everyone once was Mexican labor. )

As my mother English grew and my time grew too, we worked our way up various jobs to higher and higher pay. My mother eventually became a bank teller, attended courses in accounting that the bank provided to the staff for free after hours, she still worked weekend in a department store, I packed boxes and made pizzas.

I remember a neighbor recommending we apply for food stamps and financial assistance from the government, but my mother refused because she believed it was a system that trapped you once you started. She felt it made people lazy and dependent on handouts. Instead, she took another job serving tables three nights a week.

With an accounting degree she eventually became an accountant for various companies, always moving up in pay. Eventually she stated her own company in the credit card processing world and made great money. My sister also became an accountant in various forms of Art Companies, my brother started his own company in financial services, and I created my first business before I graduated high school, sold it to four Mexicans the day I graduated and moved to Yosemite to clean rooms for a living.

From there, started all over again and moved up the economic scales again. Am I rich, hardly, but I live a comfortable life, I do have to work to maintain it, but that's part of what I believe in.

Accept responsibility for your actions and choices

Don't wait for people to offer you something. Find what needs to be done and jump it. Get it done.

Success comes to those who run after it, not those who wait for it to be delivered.

If you do something, from a job to getting an education, make sure it's time well spent. Getting a degree in a fluff field will do you no good when the economy is bad.

Sometimes we have to do jobs we don't like, evening America they are job, it's just some people have to much ego to accept them or refuse to accept them because it's not their field.

Businesses should be started to earn money for those who own them and those who help them grow. Wall Street, Banks, and ordinary consumer are all to blame for bad economy.

The world is full of opportunities for those willing to work, improve, and develop the skills needed to grow in those areas.

Another words, stop blaming other people when you are not successful.


hugepedro


Oct 6, 2011, 10:58 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Plain and simple, even the poor can succeed and grow financially in America. I know this from personal experience.

My Mother migrated from with no English and three children to the U.S. Washing Dishes and renting out a single room in a three bedroom apartment, she work for a fast food taco restaurant. As she learned more English, she decided to help the restaurant with book keeping and then worked weekend in a department store. (All minimum wage jobs while the three of us went to school) To make end meet, my sister and I packed boxes for a clothing store, we we the only whites, everyone once was Mexican labor. )

As my mother English grew and my time grew too, we worked our way up various jobs to higher and higher pay. My mother eventually became a bank teller, attended courses in accounting that the bank provided to the staff for free after hours, she still worked weekend in a department store, I packed boxes and made pizzas.

I remember a neighbor recommending we apply for food stamps and financial assistance from the government, but my mother refused because she believed it was a system that trapped you once you started. She felt it made people lazy and dependent on handouts. Instead, she took another job serving tables three nights a week.

With an accounting degree she eventually became an accountant for various companies, always moving up in pay. Eventually she stated her own company in the credit card processing world and made great money. My sister also became an accountant in various forms of Art Companies, my brother started his own company in financial services, and I created my first business before I graduated high school, sold it to four Mexicans the day I graduated and moved to Yosemite to clean rooms for a living.

From there, started all over again and moved up the economic scales again. Am I rich, hardly, but I live a comfortable life, I do have to work to maintain it, but that's part of what I believe in.

Accept responsibility for your actions and choices

Don't wait for people to offer you something. Find what needs to be done and jump it. Get it done.

Success comes to those who run after it, not those who wait for it to be delivered.

If you do something, from a job to getting an education, make sure it's time well spent. Getting a degree in a fluff field will do you no good when the economy is bad.

Sometimes we have to do jobs we don't like, evening America they are job, it's just some people have to much ego to accept them or refuse to accept them because it's not their field.

Businesses should be started to earn money for those who own them and those who help them grow. Wall Street, Banks, and ordinary consumer are all to blame for bad economy.

The world is full of opportunities for those willing to work, improve, and develop the skills needed to grow in those areas.

Another words, stop blaming other people when you are not successful.

What a spectacular combination of arrogance and ignorance.

I came from worse poverty and disadvantage than you. There were many times we only ate if we could kill it or catch it. And where I lived, during long winters there was very little to kill or catch. There were days in a row that we didnít eat. My Mom could make a bag of rice last a week for a family of 5. Your Mom had a job, and made great money? You were rich, compared to us. It was all my Mom could do just to keep her kids alive and in clothes that you couldnít see right through the threads.

And in spite of the fact that I am very successful today, came from nothing to something, top of my field, in fact, I am not so arrogant to think that conditions are similar today to achieve what I have, or that I earned every bit of my station that I now enjoy in life, that I donít owe a huge debt to my country and society. And no, thatís not a debt because I ever took a hand out, itís because I know that the socio-economic conditions that allowed me to do business and succeed were created by, oh my goodness, government! Meaning, the contributions of my fellow citizens. And I also know that the conditions that existed 20 years ago that allowed me to get ahead, and probably you too, do not exist today.

Accept responsibility for your actions and choices? Don't wait for people to offer you something?

You assume this is what people who are struggling and losing ground are doing?

I know quite a few people, who have good degrees, who are very smart, and who work their asses off, who have been financially destroyed through no fault of their own and through no bad decisions theyíve made.

One friend finished her Masters, to find no jobs, not even entry level. Worked 2 menial jobs, delivering pizzas at night, waiting tables during the day. Could only barely pay the bills, not save anything. Then she had a medical problem. No insurance. Couldnít afford to buy it herself, and those jobs didnít provide it, of course. She doesnít have rich parents that can bail her out. Sheís on her own. Sheís wiped out now. Done. Taken out of the economy. Medical bills she will never be able to pay off. Has to depend on the good graces of friends to have a roof over her head, not because sheís not still working hard to earn money for a place of her own, but with credit ruined she canít even get a lease on a rental.

Thatís the problem with self-righteous people like you. You see a situation like that and you think, ďtough shit for her, but so what, Iíve got mine.Ē I see a situation like that and I think, ďthatís awful for her, but thatís also awful for my country and for meĒ. Because every person that is taken out of the economy like that makes my country less competitive and takes one more consumer out of the economy that I make my living in.

You think that just because your mom worked her ass off to give you a good start in life, everyone else has the same opportunity as you. Youíre wrong. Especially these days.


guangzhou


Oct 6, 2011, 11:34 PM
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Maybe you should reread what I wrote more closely.

Second, I feel bad for your friend, but I bet if I asked her face to face, she isn't blaming the banks and the market.

As you reaching the top of your field, guess that means you are living proof that the system works for those ambitious enough to work at it all the time. In your own words, you came from the biggest disadvantages and became the top of your field in fact. (Who arrogant?)

Regardless, I am a firm believer that the system in America is much better than the system in other country for allowing people to get out of the bottom and work their way up.

A poor American has more opportunities to become educated and employed than a poor rice farmer in China or Indonesia and they are more efforts in America to open doors for those poor living in the worse conditions. Try attending college while being at the bottom of the economic scale in developing countries around the world.

As for you or me having it worse, I can't say one way or another. Poor is a state of mind, having no money is a state of income and economics. I also don't believe we can ever wipe out poverty, some countries will always be better off than others, this means some country will always be in one form of poverty compared to another. I remember when China was at the bottom of the economic ladder, it cracked the doors on Capitalism and look where it is economically speaking. Communism is still alive and strong there.

As for society helping, I have nothing against society helping, I have something against the people who believe society is required to help them. Every economic recession and depression has made America stronger afterward.

Of course, maybe I'm arrogant and ignorant.


I_do


Oct 7, 2011, 12:25 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Maybe you should reread what I wrote more closely.

Second, I feel bad for your friend, but I bet if I asked her face to face, she isn't blaming the banks and the market.

As you reaching the top of your field, guess that means you are living proof that the system works for those ambitious enough to work at it all the time. In your own words, you came from the biggest disadvantages and became the top of your field in fact. (Who arrogant?)

Regardless, I am a firm believer that the system in America is much better than the system in other country for allowing people to get out of the bottom and work their way up.

A poor American has more opportunities to become educated and employed than a poor rice farmer in China or Indonesia and they are more efforts in America to open doors for those poor living in the worse conditions. Try attending college while being at the bottom of the economic scale in developing countries around the world.

As for you or me having it worse, I can't say one way or another. Poor is a state of mind, having no money is a state of income and economics. I also don't believe we can ever wipe out poverty, some countries will always be better off than others, this means some country will always be in one form of poverty compared to another. I remember when China was at the bottom of the economic ladder, it cracked the doors on Capitalism and look where it is economically speaking. Communism is still alive and strong there.

As for society helping, I have nothing against society helping, I have something against the people who believe society is required to help them. Every economic recession and depression has made America stronger afterward.

Of course, maybe I'm arrogant and ignorant.


Hugepedro wrote
Typical Republican, stupid opinion based on zero facts, and thinks he alone is responsible for his success.

Mythology of 'The American Dream'.

The fact is that of the modern economies, America is near the bottom of the list when it comes to upward social mobility. The idea that one can get ahead if they work hard is less reality in American than it is in other countries, because our government, aligned with big money, has implemented policies that are stacked against workers keeping the fruits off their labor, and our education system is stacked against the lower and middle classes.

In America, what you are born into plays a greater role in where you will end up. The American Dream is dead.

****Edited to add link to the facts that back up my statements.


http://www.oecd.org/...ecd/2/7/45002641.pdf


guangzhou


Oct 7, 2011, 2:14 AM
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Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

More government programs don't support job growth, they just increase government spending, which require an increase in tax collection. Governments, all, some more than others, are full of waste and are notorious for not getting results fast.

Government doesn't need to to be quick to a changing market, they get tax revenue whether the policies are successful or not. No matter what they do, half it's population will complain.

On the other hand, unless the government tries to interfere like it did with government bail out, business adapt quickly to changes in market or die.

Look at the size of a house in America and compare it to the size actualy needed. I'd guess about 40% of a homes interior never get used in America, but the whole thing is heated in the winter and cooled int he summer with central A/C. People spend what they have until they have no more, not all but most. American's are complaining about the unemployment rate, the bad economy, and the market/banks, but a new I-phone hits the street and millions of them sell instantly. People fid money for what they want, even if it means going in debt.

Don't like what the banks are doing, fight back. Cut your credit cards, stop getting mortgages and save to by your house in lump sum, avoid personal loans. America like most societies, loves to buy. Don't believe me, check out the gear section of this website-site, or search for "I'm a poor college student, what (insert gear here) should I buy.

Again, how many people are saving money when they are working versus getting the next size up just because they can.


yanqui


Oct 7, 2011, 9:53 AM
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Accept responsibility .... hmmm ... lets see how that goes:

For years AIG made a killing radically overvaluing its subprime mortgaged backed securities. When investors found out these values were about double the values used by the bankrupt Lehman Brothers, the company immediately began to collapse. Because such a collapse would cause a complete financial meltdown, more than 100 billion government dollars got pumped into the company. Most of this money, in turn, got payed out to banks that also had to be bailed out by the government because they too had made a killing on bad investments based on inflated subprime mortgages and were too big to fail.

What did AIG officials do to accept responsibility? After the first installment of government money they went on a retreat to California, including spa, golf and banquets, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. What next? AIG executives went on a lavish English hunting trip. Then what? AIG reported the largest corporate loss in history and the executives decided to pay themselves hundreds of millions of dollars of bonuses. Now that's responsibility.

Meanwhile, what happened to the little guy who was hit hard by the economic crisis and maybe stretched it a bit too far by buying an overvalued 300,000 dollar home in an inflated real estate market? The banks foreclosed.

Anyone who can't see the outrage in that situation is one callous cad.


(This post was edited by yanqui on Oct 7, 2011, 10:25 AM)


styndall


Oct 7, 2011, 10:20 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Accept responsibility for your choices [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

More government programs don't support job growth, they just increase government spending, which require an increase in tax collection. Governments, all, some more than others, are full of waste and are notorious for not getting results fast.

Government doesn't need to to be quick to a changing market, they get tax revenue whether the policies are successful or not. No matter what they do, half it's population will complain.

On the other hand, unless the government tries to interfere like it did with government bail out, business adapt quickly to changes in market or die.

Look at the size of a house in America and compare it to the size actualy needed. I'd guess about 40% of a homes interior never get used in America, but the whole thing is heated in the winter and cooled int he summer with central A/C. People spend what they have until they have no more, not all but most. American's are complaining about the unemployment rate, the bad economy, and the market/banks, but a new I-phone hits the street and millions of them sell instantly. People fid money for what they want, even if it means going in debt.

Don't like what the banks are doing, fight back. Cut your credit cards, stop getting mortgages and save to by your house in lump sum, avoid personal loans. America like most societies, loves to buy. Don't believe me, check out the gear section of this website-site, or search for "I'm a poor college student, what (insert gear here) should I buy.

Again, how many people are saving money when they are working versus getting the next size up just because they can.

It's like you've built up some stereotype of the average American (they're lazy slobs, not like you!), and you're not letting reality inform it at all.

What happens when a massive economic bubble largely driven by fancy Wall Street maneuvers collapses, shrinking the money supply and cutting demand? Businesses cut back, lots of people lose their jobs. No job, and suddenly that house payment gets really tough.

Or perhaps someone has gotten sick, and insurance either isn't there or doesn't cover enough. A massive number of bankruptcies begin with medical emergencies.

You've worked hard, and you've also gotten lucky - good family connections, lots of emphasis on education, etc. etc., but that's no justification for casting aspersions on people who aren't so fortunate.

Also, your government spending opinions are just stupid. All this infrastructure that permits America to be the business powerhouse that it is was built with government spending. In fact, the biggest periods of growth in the US occur during periods of higher taxes and higher government spending.

Seriously, if you'd let reality inform your opinions, you'd get to be right a lot more often.


hugepedro


Oct 7, 2011, 2:57 PM
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Re: [rrrADAM] Accept responsibility for your choices [In reply to]
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rrrADAM wrote:
To me the real irony is...

In a nutshell, one can argue that the Republican way of doing things protects the rich and screws the poor, BUT, there aren't as many rich as poor, thus many of the poor vote Republican, screwing themselves.

Down where I am now, in the South (Red States), they generally all hate government spending, but it is they who have their hands out to the Fed and State asking for money much more so than do most Blue States. And, then they hate imigrants for being 'drains on the system'.

I do agree on the title of this thread:
"Accept responsibility for your choices"
But people need to look more at their choices in regards to where they are at, than focusing on the choices of others, as many of the poorly educated yet self righteous Reds choose to do.

There is no shortage of people too dumb to know what's good for them.


hugepedro


Oct 7, 2011, 3:03 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Accept responsibility for your choices [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

Perhaps I'm the ignorant one then. I had no idea this study was flawed. Please point me to the problems in their method or data so that I know not to use this flawed report again.


guangzhou


Oct 7, 2011, 5:41 PM
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Re: [styndall] Accept responsibility for your choices [In reply to]
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styndall wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

More government programs don't support job growth, they just increase government spending, which require an increase in tax collection. Governments, all, some more than others, are full of waste and are notorious for not getting results fast.

Government doesn't need to to be quick to a changing market, they get tax revenue whether the policies are successful or not. No matter what they do, half it's population will complain.

On the other hand, unless the government tries to interfere like it did with government bail out, business adapt quickly to changes in market or die.

Look at the size of a house in America and compare it to the size actualy needed. I'd guess about 40% of a homes interior never get used in America, but the whole thing is heated in the winter and cooled int he summer with central A/C. People spend what they have until they have no more, not all but most. American's are complaining about the unemployment rate, the bad economy, and the market/banks, but a new I-phone hits the street and millions of them sell instantly. People fid money for what they want, even if it means going in debt.

Don't like what the banks are doing, fight back. Cut your credit cards, stop getting mortgages and save to by your house in lump sum, avoid personal loans. America like most societies, loves to buy. Don't believe me, check out the gear section of this website-site, or search for "I'm a poor college student, what (insert gear here) should I buy.

Again, how many people are saving money when they are working versus getting the next size up just because they can.

It's like you've built up some stereotype of the average American (they're lazy slobs, not like you!), and you're not letting reality inform it at all.

Not a stereotype, they are plenty of very hard working American, that is why I decided to become American myself. They are also plenty of lazy one waiting for someone else to do things for them and blaming other for where they are in life instead of working at finding a way out.
Americans, not the American government, have created the greatest innovations in the last 200 year fairly consistently. Mostly because America is a place that allows things to happen.

In reply to:
What happens when a massive economic bubble largely driven by fancy Wall Street maneuvers collapses, shrinking the money supply and cutting demand? Businesses cut back, lots of people lose their jobs. No job, and suddenly that house payment gets really tough.

If the government has it's way, they create loads of programs that take years to get started, pump money into businesses that don't deserve the funding. This teaches businesses it's ok to keep doing what you're doing, because when you mess up, we'll come clean up behind you and give you money to fix what you broke. Giving money to big business that is known to have done the list of things this companies did was horrible idea. Those businesses and the decisions makers behind them were not held accountable for what they did, so they will never accept responsibility for their actions.

The government could of spent less given the employees the same salary they were for 18 moths to 24 years while those employees repositioned themselves. While I prefer big business to Big Government, nowhere in my post did I say big business rules. I still think individuals and small businesses do more for America than anyone. The government doesnít earn itís revenue, it just collect taxes.

In reply to:
Or perhaps someone has gotten sick, and insurance either isn't there or doesn't cover enough. A massive number of bankruptcies begin with medical emergencies.

Here I agree, they are always circumstances that will create these problems. What I don't believe is that the unemployment number is all about those circumstances.

Medical, I have suggestion, create a program where doctor who just finished medical school go in work in government hospitals for roughly the same salary they would make if they joined the Military, including housing, in exchange for them working in these state hospitals for set number of years, the federal government pays back the medical school and college loans. (Like the military does with doctors now.) Similar programs can be instituted with other medical professions.

This allows doctor to work, earn experience, and work for lower salaries because they have college loan looming overhead. The doctor gives time; the government gives it's taxed earned money. We get more doctors in public hospitals; some will move on, other will stay at lower salaries and housing allowance because they can afford to work and are making a difference.

In reply to:
You've worked hard, and you've also gotten lucky - good family connections, lots of emphasis on education, etc. etc., but that's no justification for casting aspersions on people who aren't so fortunate.

Not sure if I've worked hard or not, I've looked for ways to do what I want in move forward. I've actually avoided working to hard most of my life; I instead choose to follow the path of least resistance to achieve my goals and so I can go climbing more. I've always minimalized my possessions and lived frugally. In many cases, people around me told me I was wrong for doing things the way I did, that I would regret this or that. I rarely do things just because thatís what society wants me to do or that the usual way of doing things.

Education, I have a bachelors degree, not much, only decided to go to college so I could become a teacher, something I did for ten years then moved on. I decided to attend college ten years after graduating highs chool and a few years after the military.
Teaching is hard work, but Iloved it, and the schedule was nice compromise time wise for teaching. I learned a lot about people and kids, enough to decide that I was not meant to be teacher because my views donít conform to the mass public. My views I based on what I read, see, and experience firsthand.

How did I pay for college, simple, the GI Bill. A government program that trades time served for a financial reward. Not a government handout. I have nothing against the government helping, I just have something against people who want the government to help with nothing in return.

In reply to:
Also, your government spending opinions are just stupid. All this infrastructure that permits America to be the business powerhouse that it is was built with government spending. In fact, the biggest periods of growth in the US occur during periods of higher taxes and higher government spending.

Not sure where I ever mentioned infrastructure spending. A country's infrastructure is definitely the government's responsibility. For a good infrastructure, I am willing to pay taxes. Looking at America's infrastructure; that is a good place to start recreating jobs with government money. I also know I am not the only who believes this.

As for period of growth based in government spending, the spending was all based in improving the countries infrastructures and hired people to build roads, sewers, parks and other systems needed for the good of society.

The program didn't give money because people were complaining about not having a job, they were paying people to do jobs that needed do that no-one was willing to do before. The programs provided housing and low wages. People wanted to work, needed a roof over their heads, and were hungry.

Of course, the lack of maintenance in our current infrastructure is a good example of why I think the government isn't efficient. The government doesnít maintain what it has until itís so far gone that itís cheaper to rebuilt versus maintaining.

In reply to:
Seriously, if you'd let reality inform your opinions, you'd get to be right a lot more often.

Reality is that no one sees the whole picture. Every example you mentioned above was not mentioned by me, but you attacked what you perceived my views were about those subject, when in reality you have no ideas what they are.

You think I am against government spending, when in reality I am against welfare, food stamp, and other programs that gives something for nothing.

A few of you have hinted at me being a republican, well I am not. Actually, I am not sure which is worse, a Republican or a Democrat. Both have ideas I agree with, both have ideas I disagree with. I am happy to say I am neither and that no political party shares all of my views, so I donít align myself with any one party. Actually, I think all the parties have something worth saying, and all have things I completely disagree with. I guess thatís why they say in a Democracy, more than half the people are unhappy at all time.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 7, 2011, 6:03 PM)


ubu


Oct 7, 2011, 7:53 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] Accept responsibility for your choices [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Oh, the OECD, the French organization that more or less wants the Government to do everything. I'm a French passport holder and don't hold much faith in what hey support.

Perhaps I'm the ignorant one then. I had no idea this study was flawed. Please point me to the problems in their method or data so that I know not to use this flawed report again.

There, I highlighted the problem for you. Grumble grumble freedom fries something something....


Partner rrrADAM


Oct 8, 2011, 5:36 AM
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Re: [hugepedro] Accept responsibility for your choices [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:
rrrADAM wrote:
To me the real irony is...

In a nutshell, one can argue that the Republican way of doing things protects the rich and screws the poor, BUT, there aren't as many rich as poor, thus many of the poor vote Republican, screwing themselves.

Down where I am now, in the South (Red States), they generally all hate government spending, but it is they who have their hands out to the Fed and State asking for money much more so than do most Blue States. And, then they hate imigrants for being 'drains on the system'.

I do agree on the title of this thread:
"Accept responsibility for your choices"
But people need to look more at their choices in regards to where they are at, than focusing on the choices of others, as many of the poorly educated yet self righteous Reds choose to do.

There is no shortage of people too dumb to know what's good for them.

And people to exploit their stupidity.

I think Andy said it well, many years ago:
"...a large portion of voters are kneejerking simpletons easily distracted by shiny things and yelling..."
~Andy Gram (atg200)


atg200


Oct 8, 2011, 8:29 AM
Post #25 of 68 (2060 views)
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