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Dwhitt1981


Oct 10, 2011, 12:18 PM
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Webbing Anchor Knots
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When using webbing for my anchor what knot/knots are good to use?


chilli


Oct 10, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Re: [Dwhitt1981] Webbing Anchor Knots [In reply to]
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short answer: tie webbing using a water knot with plenty of tail.

Please, please, please do NOT use online forums for advice on climbing safety and rigging! The best way to learn this stuff is AMGA certified courses, or a competent experienced climber. But I'm begging you, at the very least go thoroughly READ books like those by Craig Luebben, John Long, and the like. Then PRACTICE. THEN go outside with it.

- Luebben: Knots
- Luebben: Basic Skills
- Long: Anchors


edited for emphasis and links


(This post was edited by chilli on Oct 10, 2011, 1:15 PM)


shimanilami


Oct 10, 2011, 1:12 PM
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You're going to die!!!!


bearbreeder


Oct 10, 2011, 1:14 PM
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Re: [Dwhitt1981] Webbing Anchor Knots [In reply to]
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whaddah he said ... you DONT want to learn something as important as anchors on the intrawebs without a real live experienced person to show ya

i remember once someone belaying me up on a reverso ... he had clipped reverso to the anchors with, not in reverso mode, but normal mode ...

when i got up and saw it i asked him where he learned that ... he said the internet ...

if i fell i would very possibly be dead right now

if you care about who you climb with ... regardless if yr willing to die yrself ... get someone to show ya

Crazy


Dwhitt1981


Oct 11, 2011, 5:51 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Webbing Anchor Knots [In reply to]
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The reason I ask is that I was watching my buddy ( a guide) set up and he used webbing and locking biners on the bolts. He used a over hand knot and locking biners on both ends, then a over hand at the end with another locking biner that hung over the edge. It's not that I dont trust him only double checking. My two girls ( 5yrs & 8 yrs) are climbing now and I'm in the works on getting all the gear. I just want to make sure I'm learning the best way to set up my top ropes from the start. Thanks


shockabuku


Oct 11, 2011, 6:09 AM
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A water knot is used to tie the ends of webbing together - whether they be the opposite ends of the same piece or ends of two separate pieces. It is very much like an overhand knot.

It sounds like your friend was tying loops in the ends of pieces of webbing using an overhand on a bight.


Dwhitt1981


Oct 11, 2011, 6:16 AM
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Yes. I understand that the water knot basiclly makes a sling. But should I set up that way or use a water knot and just use more webbing and end up with basiclly two slings? Sorry I hope I'm making myself clear enough.


Rmsyll2


Oct 11, 2011, 6:28 AM
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Re: [Dwhitt1981] Webbing Anchor Knots [In reply to]
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http://www.animatedknots.com/indexclimbing.php

See Water Knot, and there are other similar websites. Note that webbing should be tied to stay flat inside the knot, which is true for following back through an Overhand and Figure-8, and can be true for a Girth Hitch. Making a knot neat is called "dressing" and is not just for looks. The other matter is whether to use webbing or a cord, with much of preferrence as well as data and experience on that issue.

.


marc801


Oct 11, 2011, 6:42 AM
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Dwhitt1981 wrote:
Yes. I understand that the water knot basiclly makes a sling. But should I set up that way or use a water knot and just use more webbing and end up with basiclly two slings? Sorry I hope I'm making myself clear enough.
You're not, which is why people are telling you to not ask and learn this stuff on the net.


Rmsyll2


Oct 11, 2011, 6:48 AM
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"Sorry I hope I'm making myself clear enough."

Not to me, and I suspect that is partly because of your ignorance of climbing practices and terminology. That is why others here are urging you to get hands-on assistance, which is not working with your friend so far. Doing is not teaching, and reading is not practicing.

Should you use webbing for anchors? Many do, in many different ways. Others prefer cord, including old climbing rope or static line. Should you tie an Overhand on a Bight to make a loop at the end of webbing? Not preferred for webbing, because it crimps together the material, which weakens it according to stress testing. Note that simple knots with webbing are very difficult to untie after being "weighted" by use. However, making a loop with a folded loop or sewn sling, rather than just a bight at the end, gives you redundancy on the strands which you might consider a compensation.

A major consideration for rigging anchors is equalizing the two (etc.) lines, meaning make each take equal tension under load. Using webbing, a common practice is to use a Water Knot to make two slings (meaning a closed loop) at the anchors, making them equalized by doing so.

.


moose_droppings


Oct 11, 2011, 7:35 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
Should you tie an Overhand on a Bight to make a loop at the end of webbing? Not preferred for webbing, because it crimps together the material, which weakens it according to stress testing.

.

Not to sideline this discussion, but could you explain how any knot in webbing (no matter how neatly dressed) wouldn't crimp the webbing? Could you also point me to that report that would show how much an overhand on a bight deteriorates the strength of the knot compared to a water knot because of crimping? Thanks.

Edit; What knot would you use to make a loop on the end of webbing?
Out for the day, later.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Oct 11, 2011, 7:55 AM)


csproul


Oct 11, 2011, 7:46 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote:
"Sorry I hope I'm making myself clear enough."

Not to me, and I suspect that is partly because of your ignorance of climbing practices and terminology....

.
Wow Lloyd, this the pot calling the kettle black. I can't think of how many of your posts (including this one) have been completely incomprehensible or just blatantly wrong. You yourself have made the claim that you don't climb outside of Pilot Mtn top-ropes. And honestly, I don't know anyone who has even seen you do ANY climbing. I'd hardly consider you an expert on the subject.


(This post was edited by csproul on Oct 11, 2011, 7:51 AM)


Rudmin


Oct 11, 2011, 8:01 AM
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Re: [Dwhitt1981] Webbing Anchor Knots [In reply to]
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Oh boy, people love to tell you what you can't do. What is the point of a beginners forum if every answer is "F' off, go learn from a professional". I don't see any problem with asking questions and learning from an internet forum. If anything, you will get a wide gamut of responses, and just like reading the newspaper, with a little critical reading and thinking on your own part, you can separate the crap from the truth.

For the most part, the kind of people on a climbing forum asking questions about which knots are best are the kind of climber that will tend towards oversafe rather than unsafe. I wouldn't be worried about the OP doing something dangerous, especially with his own kids.

As for the original question, a water-knot is great for making webbing into a loop, but it's not the only knot. An overhand on a bight is just as secure and load bearing as a water knot and the actual knot itself is actually the exact same thing. In either case make sure to leave several inches of tail because both knots will creep slowly over time.

Edit: And for the record, you made yourself perfectly clear in describing your friend's setup. It sounds like a solid anchor. The only thing I would change is to add a second locker to the bight going over the edge just for redundancy. I think most people pass the top rope through two carabiners rather than one because it's such a critical point.


(This post was edited by Rudmin on Oct 11, 2011, 8:04 AM)


Dwhitt1981


Oct 11, 2011, 8:21 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
Oh boy, people love to tell you what you can't do. What is the point of a beginners forum if every answer is "F' off, go learn from a professional". I don't see any problem with asking questions and learning from an internet forum. If anything, you will get a wide gamut of responses, and just like reading the newspaper, with a little critical reading and thinking on your own part, you can separate the crap from the truth.

For the most part, the kind of people on a climbing forum asking questions about which knots are best are the kind of climber that will tend towards oversafe rather than unsafe. I wouldn't be worried about the OP doing something dangerous, especially with his own kids.

As for the original question, a water-knot is great for making webbing into a loop, but it's not the only knot. An overhand on a bight is just as secure and load bearing as a water knot and the actual knot itself is actually the exact same thing. In either case make sure to leave several inches of tail because both knots will creep slowly over time.

Edit: And for the record, you made yourself perfectly clear in describing your friend's setup. It sounds like a solid anchor. The only thing I would change is to add a second locker to the bight going over the edge just for redundancy. I think most people pass the top rope through two carabiners rather than one because it's such a critical point.

Thanks for the help. We used a over hand on a bit at each end w\locking biners. A overhand in the middle to equalize w\locking biner. ( the walls are bolted also)

I had to look again to check. I thought I posted in the " Born with biner and rope in my hand " section or a min. I was beginning to think climbing was a God given gift that can't be research.lol

I have the rock climbing basics book by Craig Luebben. But he puts most of his time on the anchor with cams and lead or trid climbing. And he shows about 20 diff knots. It was confusing me.


shockabuku


Oct 11, 2011, 8:31 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
As for the original question, a water-knot is great for making webbing into a loop, but it's not the only knot. An overhand on a bight is just as secure and load bearing as a water knot and the actual knot itself is actually the exact same thing.

No, they're not the same thing. If I join the two ends of a piece of webbing together with an overhand to form a loop I get a knot where the two ends come out on the same side and the knot may roll, fail, and kill me.


shockabuku


Oct 11, 2011, 8:39 AM
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Dwhitt1981 wrote:
Yes. I understand that the water knot basiclly makes a sling. But should I set up that way or use a water knot and just use more webbing and end up with basiclly two slings? Sorry I hope I'm making myself clear enough.

That's a harder question to answer. Tying the overhand on a bight in the end takes less webbing. The loop is stronger but a single strand should be plenty strong enough. The loop may be easier to work with. How you bring the multiple strands of the anchor together may also dictate which is more convenient.


Dwhitt1981


Oct 11, 2011, 8:41 AM
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? The book describes it as tieing a overhand in one end and retracing the knot with the other end leaving at least 3 inch tails on both ends. So it's basiclly a overhand on an overhand right?


JimTitt


Oct 11, 2011, 8:42 AM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Rmsyll2 wrote:
Should you tie an Overhand on a Bight to make a loop at the end of webbing? Not preferred for webbing, because it crimps together the material, which weakens it according to stress testing.

.


Edit; What knot would you use to make a loop on the end of webbing?
Out for the day, later.

The knot thought best for forming a loop in the end of tape is a bowline on the bight, this is the recommended knot by the German Alpine Club and the knot we us in the end of Dyneema tape for testing the other knots such as clove hitches.
I donīt know of a stronger and more secure end loop connection other than stitched and you can undo it afterwards as well.

Jim


Rudmin


Oct 11, 2011, 8:49 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
Rudmin wrote:
As for the original question, a water-knot is great for making webbing into a loop, but it's not the only knot. An overhand on a bight is just as secure and load bearing as a water knot and the actual knot itself is actually the exact same thing.

No, they're not the same thing. If I join the two ends of a piece of webbing together with an overhand to form a loop I get a knot where the two ends come out on the same side and the knot may roll, fail, and kill me.

I said that the knot is the same. The strands may do different things, but the knot is the same knot. If you chopped each strand and looked at just the knot you could not tell the difference between an overhand on a bight and a water knot.

Nobody recommended making a webbing loop out of an overhand on a bight. If you read his setup, the overhand on a bight is only used for making small loops at each end to clip into a locker. It is perfectly safe in that respect.


marc801


Oct 11, 2011, 9:06 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
I said that the knot is the same. The strands may do different things, but the knot is the same knot. If you chopped each strand and looked at just the knot you could not tell the difference between an overhand on a bight and a water knot.
But what the strands do is actually pretty damned important and the applications are different. To say that it's the same knot internally is just semantic obfuscation.

Here's a selection of knot photos that is pertinent to the discussion:
http://www.canyonsandcrags.com/...ng-knots-components/


bearbreeder


Oct 11, 2011, 9:43 AM
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Rudmin wrote:
Oh boy, people love to tell you what you can't do. What is the point of a beginners forum if every answer is "F' off, go learn from a professional". I don't see any problem with asking questions and learning from an internet forum. If anything, you will get a wide gamut of responses, and just like reading the newspaper, with a little critical reading and thinking on your own part, you can separate the crap from the truth.

For the most part, the kind of people on a climbing forum asking questions about which knots are best are the kind of climber that will tend towards oversafe rather than unsafe. I wouldn't be worried about the OP doing something dangerous, especially with his own kids.

As for the original question, a water-knot is great for making webbing into a loop, but it's not the only knot. An overhand on a bight is just as secure and load bearing as a water knot and the actual knot itself is actually the exact same thing. In either case make sure to leave several inches of tail because both knots will creep slowly over time.

Edit: And for the record, you made yourself perfectly clear in describing your friend's setup. It sounds like a solid anchor. The only thing I would change is to add a second locker to the bight going over the edge just for redundancy. I think most people pass the top rope through two carabiners rather than one because it's such a critical point.


im sorry ... but by the sounds of the OP ... it seems like he/she is more or less COMPLETELY new ... ie climbs in vibram 5 fingers

sure you can "learn" some stuff from the intrawebs ... and even more from books .... but without a second experienced person to check yr setup you could be totally unsafe and not even realize it

for someone this new ... learning from someone who nows what they are doing IMO is essential ...

you can see the multitude of opinions and arguments already in these newb threads ...

like i said i could have easily died because someone though the knew how to use a reverso in autoblock mode cause they learned it off the internet ....

if someone wants to put their own life at risk because they want to learn to climb and set up anchors off RC without an experience person its up to them .... but dont put others at risk

an experience person could answer all the OPs questions in a few minutes


Dwhitt1981


Oct 11, 2011, 10:26 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Webbing Anchor Knots [In reply to]
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My question was not for someone to teach me via this site but to ask about the setup used to see if there is a diff\better setup. It was setup but a guide that happens to be a friend. He has been trained and is a first responder in the area. I'm just looking for the best setup and only have one person that I know of in the area.

And as for my climbing in five fingers. They worked better than the climbing shoes he had that I tried. The question on that post was for something better than what I tried.

I wish people would read ever post (not the last) before reply. I'm not jumping you or being a a$$. No harm meant.


shockabuku


Oct 11, 2011, 10:34 AM
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Dwhitt1981 wrote:
My question was not for someone to teach me via this site but to ask about the setup used to see if there is a diff\better setup.

How is that not teaching?


bearbreeder


Oct 11, 2011, 10:37 AM
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dont take this the wrong way

but then i suggest you ask yr friend ... as a guide he should be able to show you the "proper" way

the truth is there usually is no "best" way ... youll get everyone trying to claim their way is the best, and it usually becomes an ego game online

there are however ways that are "safe" enough and recognized by others as such ...

yr guide friend should be able to go through those with you for a few beers, and you can confirm with craig luebbens "rock climbing anchors" book if yr worried

and he should be able to tell you exactly why its done like that ... if he doesnt answer, or refuses to ... then i suggest finding someone else

the intraweb is a very poor substitute for real experience ... or even recognized rock climbing books, at least those have to be pretty accurate ...


Dwhitt1981


Oct 11, 2011, 10:54 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
How is that not teaching?

Because I didn't ask for someone to teach me. I was simply looking for input on what I had learn this weekend. Not to be noob blasted. I'm not or will ever be a pro I just want to have fun and be safe at the same time. That's what I thought this site\forum was for. Maybe I was wrong.

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