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climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 1:00 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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I'd call it an On-sight Flash of a PTFTW.


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 1:03 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
Does Redpoint apply to bouldering or does it need to strictly be lead climbing like that definition says?

I'd say Redpoint only applies to lead climbing and in bouldering it's called a Send. wo0!


kevthegerman


Oct 12, 2011, 1:05 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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Who gives a fucking shit??????????????????


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 1:06 PM
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Re: [donald949] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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donald949 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
TarHeelEMT wrote:
JasonsDrivingForce wrote:
In addition it appears that the Pinkpoint definition below does not include the ďafter making previous unsuccessful attemptsĒ criteria. Does that mean that a Pinkpoint can only be achieved on your first attempt but a Redpoint can be achieved on any attempt?
.


No.

So both need to be on your first attempt or both can be on any attempt?

psstt.....no one uses the term pinkpoint anymore. Prehung draws are common place in hard sport climbing and do not detract from a redpoint or on sight. The term doesn't exist in trad climbing because anyone that leads on preplaced gear gets ridiculed into submission. Cool

Josh

That makes sense. However, it still isnít clear if a Redpoint can be achieved on anything other than your first attempt.

a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta).

What beta is, however, is open to debate.

Josh
Let not forget my favorite style.
Hangdog. The first attempt, with falls.

I think the new term for hangdog is "Honeybadgered teh shit out of it." But I could be making that up.


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 1:08 PM
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Re: [kevthegerman] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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kevthegerman wrote:
Who gives a fucking shit??????????????????

Erm, I'm guessing you don't? [lots 0 question marks here]


kevthegerman


Oct 12, 2011, 1:14 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless...


kevthegerman


Oct 12, 2011, 1:15 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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btw, funny site.


majid_sabet


Oct 12, 2011, 2:32 PM
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Re: [JasonsDrivingForce] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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but with pre-placed protection

are they talking about bolt or removable pros ?


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 4:43 PM
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Re: [kevthegerman] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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kevthegerman wrote:
no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless...

Heh, yore ascent log book on here is pretty full for someone who thinks it "useless"...




climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 4:46 PM
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Re: [kevthegerman] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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kevthegerman wrote:
btw, funny site.

Thank you. Now git back OT before teh mods decide to shun you.


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 4:47 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
but with pre-placed protection

are they talking about bolt or removable pros ?

Proly are about teh bolts talking. There are cons to teh removable pros.


Bag11s


Oct 12, 2011, 5:54 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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Now, concerning trad climbing on preplaced protection. This approach may be ridiculed, as you say, at the very least by Healyj, who, as we all know, has a very specific and conservative definition of what trad is. However, I have preplaced gear on a few all gear routes to check out the location, device type, and specific safety needs of the route before attempting the thing from the ground up while placing gear. This is a tactic not unlike sport climbing, and can trend into head pointing, if the thing is dangerous enough. In doing so, I am confident that I havenít committed some sin worthy of ridicule. I may be ridiculed by some, but, that is to the ridiculerís detriment, not mine. I am enjoying the climbing.


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 7:13 PM
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Re: [Bag11s] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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Bag11s wrote:
Now, concerning trad climbing on preplaced protection. This approach may be ridiculed, as you say, at the very least by Healyj, who, as we all know, has a very specific and conservative definition of what trad is. However, I have preplaced gear on a few all gear routes to check out the location, device type, and specific safety needs of the route before attempting the thing from the ground up while placing gear. This is a tactic not unlike sport climbing, and can trend into head pointing, if the thing is dangerous enough. In doing so, I am confident that I havenít committed some sin worthy of ridicule. I may be ridiculed by some, but, that is to the ridiculerís detriment, not mine. I am enjoying the climbing.

New wave trad like you're describing is a whole nother ball of wax. But trad is still trad and the climber having the most fun always Winz!


jeepnphreak


Oct 12, 2011, 7:29 PM
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Re: [climbingtrash] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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climbingtrash wrote:
kevthegerman wrote:
no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless...

Heh, yore ascent log book on here is pretty full for someone who thinks it "useless"...


I don't see any 11s or 12s listed there either... Unsure


climbingtrash


Oct 12, 2011, 9:58 PM
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Re: [jeepnphreak] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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jeepnphreak wrote:
climbingtrash wrote:
kevthegerman wrote:
no, i don't care, we as climber all know when we send something clean... so i don't think these terms really matter unless you are a pro and your paycheck relies on it. All these terms for the finish of a climb are dumb.. you either climb it clean or you don't you either do it with the draws in place or without.. you always send trad by placing your own gear or you don't learn to place gear. so these specific terms for my weekend/evening activity are useless. My friends and i frequently "redpoint" 11's and 12's but we don't bother writing that crap in our climbing logs (lol climbing logs are dumb too)... it is useless...

Heh, yore ascent log book on here is pretty full for someone who thinks it "useless"...


I don't see any 11s or 12s listed there either... Unsure

Weird, isn't it.


blueeyedclimber


Oct 13, 2011, 5:11 AM
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Re: [Bag11s] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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Bag11s wrote:
Now, concerning trad climbing on preplaced protection. This approach may be ridiculed, as you say, at the very least by Healyj, who, as we all know, has a very specific and conservative definition of what trad is. However, I have preplaced gear on a few all gear routes to check out the location, device type, and specific safety needs of the route before attempting the thing from the ground up while placing gear. This is a tactic not unlike sport climbing, and can trend into head pointing, if the thing is dangerous enough. In doing so, I am confident that I havenít committed some sin worthy of ridicule. I may be ridiculed by some, but, that is to the ridiculerís detriment, not mine. I am enjoying the climbing.


PINKPOINTER!!! PINKPOINTER!! I CAUGHT A PINKPOINTER!!!

Haha! If you are working a climb, I assume you eventually will go for a send placing your own gear. That's not really what i am talking about. I have known of people that will actually "lead" on someone else's gear and call it a day. What they are doing is not leading and is silly. Why don't they just toprope it.

Josh


blueeyedclimber


Oct 13, 2011, 5:16 AM
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Re: [olderic] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta).

Josh

Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too.

You may be historically correct. I wasn't climbing when these terms were thought up. You would know better than I. BUT...I was giving the definition of how they are used today, most,if not 100% of the time. I have never heard anyone refer to their first attempt as a redpoint. Crusty old guys like you don't even use those terms any ways. You just climb and shake your head at us young whipper snappers (In climber years...I'm not that young) who like to brag about our ascents using fancy language. Tongue

Josh


kevthegerman


Oct 13, 2011, 7:46 AM
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yeah, and a log that i rarely use... the last one was a climb i onsighted and bolted it ground up.. so i guess with ya'lls logic the last time i hit the rock was in march? right, i am very attentative to my log..


hyhuu


Oct 13, 2011, 8:00 AM
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csproul wrote:
marc801 wrote:
...
Using any of these terms to describe a bouldering comp final doesn't really make sense. The terms denote the style of an ascent, not an event. Why not just call it a "final"?
They make perfect sense in the context of a comp. Of the few comps I have been to, before the finals, maximum points were awarded for a flash of a problem, and lower point values awarded for subsequent attempts (redpoint, although the term is not really used in bouldering). For finals, the comps were onsight format, meaning that competitors did not get to see the route until they were to climb it and were not allowed to watch other competitors attempt the route/problem. Finalist only got one shot at the finals route, so they either got the onsight or they didn't get the route at all. Finalist who did not complete the route were placed by how far they got on the route. So the term may not describe an event, but when the competitors are forced to attempt routes "onsight" then I think it is a fair way to describe the competition format.

By virtue of competition, all competitors are working to get the route on first try regardless of the format (1 try vs multiple tries). I'm curious what the competitors can't see on a 15ft wall?


climbingtrash


Oct 13, 2011, 8:07 AM
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kevthegerman wrote:
yeah, and a log that i rarely use... the last one was a climb i onsighted and bolted it ground up.. so i guess with ya'lls logic the last time i hit the rock was in march? right, i am very attentative to my log..

Nice spray down. So you onsighted while bolting or you bolted first then onsighted?


jt512


Oct 13, 2011, 10:19 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Terminology clarification [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
olderic wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
a redpoint cannot be achieved on your first attempt. First attempt is either an on-sight (no beta) or a flash (beta).

Josh

Sure you can redpoint a climb on your initial attempt. If you climbed it cleanly then its a red point. Flash is a proper subset of redpoint so if you climbed it with some form of beta (TBD) cleanly the first time then you get to say that you are in that inner circle of the redpoint set. Likewise on-sight is a proper subset of flash - you did it cleanly the first time without any beta (except you can split hairs about the definition of beta - grade? if anyone has ever climbed it? etc.). So then you get to be in the inner inner circle. woo-hoo. Most people will describe what they did in the grandest way possible. So they won't just say they red pointed it if they can say something "better". They could just say they got to the top eventually if they wanted too.

You may be historically correct. I wasn't climbing when these terms were thought up. You would know better than I. BUT...I was giving the definition of how they are used today, most,if not 100% of the time. I have never heard anyone refer to their first attempt as a redpoint. Crusty old guys like you don't even use those terms any ways. You just climb and shake your head at us young whipper snappers (In climber years...I'm not that young) who like to brag about our ascents using fancy language. Tongue

Josh

The words "redpoint"†and "flash" each have a broad meaning and a narrow meaning. In both cases the narrow meaning is the more common.

For "redpoint," the broad meaning is any clean ascent, and the narrow meaning is a clean ascent, other than on the first try. Eric is essentially right that climbers normally give themselves maximum credit for their ascents, so it is rare to hear a climber refer to a specific on-sight as a redpoint. However, if someone were to ask me if there was any route I†hadn't redpointed on a wall on which I'd sent every route, I'd likely answer "yes," even if some of the ascents were flashes.

For "flash," the broad meaning is a clean ascent on the first try (as used in the previous sentence), and the narrow meaning is a clean ascent on the first try with beta. When used in the broad sense, a "flash" can be either an "onsight flash" or a "beta flash," though one hardly ever sees this usage anymore.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Oct 13, 2011, 10:22 AM)


blueeyedclimber


Oct 13, 2011, 11:47 AM
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Jay, nice explanation.

BTW, one stars hurt my feelings Unimpressed

Josh


jt512


Oct 13, 2011, 11:54 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Jay, nice explanation.

BTW, one stars hurt my feelings Unimpressed

Josh

I didn't one-star you!

Jay


blueeyedclimber


Oct 13, 2011, 11:55 AM
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jt512 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Jay, nice explanation.

BTW, one stars hurt my feelings Unimpressed

Josh

I didn't one-star you!

Jay

Oh, I know. I didn't think it was you, I was just throwing it out there. Wink

Josh


Partner cracklover


Oct 13, 2011, 12:14 PM
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apple is a member of fruit is a member of food.

Josh was trying to argue that apple is not food.

I will see him tonight and will punish him for his illogic. I just have to think of a punishment appropriate to the crime. Any suggestions?

GO

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