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sp115


Oct 28, 2011, 3:53 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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tolman_paul wrote:
How could they be rated to be used as twin or half, and yet you couldn't mix the two techniques on a pitch??????????????????????

As to advantages of double ropes shortening falls, it's not only from the rope zig zagging less. If fall while making (and missing) a clip, you will be falling double the distance from your harness to your last place of pro, not double the distance from your last piece of pro, up to the clip and back down to your harness.

The general thought is that twins will stretch together when when clipped through a common biner, but if you start alternating then the last biner clipped as a twin might see the ropes abrade one another because when loaded in a fall they will stretch at different rates.

And you're incorrect about fall distances*. Think about it for a minute - there is more rope out when you fall trying to make a clip and that adds to the fall distance.









* unless you mean something entirely different from what you typed.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Oct 28, 2011, 3:57 PM)


tolman_paul


Oct 28, 2011, 4:12 PM
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Re: [sp115] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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My point is with two ropes, you pull up only one to make the clip, and if you blow it, the one you didn't pull up lessens the length of the fall.


sp115


Oct 28, 2011, 4:22 PM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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tolman_paul wrote:
My point is with two ropes, you pull up only one to make the clip, and if you blow it, the one you didn't pull up lessens the length of the fall.

Ha, yes of course, I actually did completely misunderstand your point. I'll leave my post above intact as a tribute to reading fail.


tolman_paul


Oct 28, 2011, 4:47 PM
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Re: [sp115] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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The fail was on my part for over complicating the description of something fairly simple.

Hmm rc.com at large seems to often suffer that malady Tongue


bearbreeder


Oct 28, 2011, 5:48 PM
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Re: [jktinst] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
This doesn't seem to have ignited as much debate as I thought it might, so far. Mammut actually stays carefully away from this can of worms. Their site does mention that you can use their double ropes with either the twin or the double technique but it does not say that it’s OK to mix and match the two techniques in one pitch.

I understood that the community was fairly divided on this issue on grounds of safety (friction of one strand against the other where they are clipped together in case of a fall) and/or convenience (friction of one strand against the other together during progression)...

the older mammut pdf stated that you can start of as twins and split them to doubles i believe

unfortunately i didnt save a pdf copy, but if you have Seilfibel_E_030617.pdf thats the file name ...

edit : i sent an email to mammut to clarify, they may have changed their literature ... ill update once i get a response


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Oct 29, 2011, 12:47 AM)


dagibbs


Oct 29, 2011, 10:25 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
1 - Bring up two seconds at once.
Have the first second stay at least 20 feet ahead of the second second, in case of a fall and rope stretch.

GO

I've heard it the other way -- that the two climbers should stay fairly close together, so that if the upper climber dislodges a rock, it will still be slow-moving when it reaches the 2nd climber, rather than having fallen a lot farther and hitting harder.

Perhaps it is another non-absolute, where you need to weigh the relative advantages and disadvantages of close vs far.


jktinst


Oct 29, 2011, 5:49 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
unfortunately i didnt save a pdf copy, but if you have Seilfibel_E_030617.pdf thats the file name ...

edit : i sent an email to mammut to clarify, they may have changed their literature ... ill update once i get a response

Yeah. The current version of their "rope fibula" pdf is a lot more circumspect. It'd be interesting to see what they have to say about this issue but I won't hold my breath. In my experience, this kind of message usually goes either wholly unanswered or the only answer is from the e-mail query zombie to say something like "Excellent question, thank you so much for sending it. I've forwarded it to the technical department, etc."


billl7


Oct 29, 2011, 8:12 PM
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Re: [dagibbs] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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dagibbs wrote:
cracklover wrote:
1 - Bring up two seconds at once.
Have the first second stay at least 20 feet ahead of the second second, in case of a fall and rope stretch.

GO

I've heard it the other way -- that the two climbers should stay fairly close together, so that if the upper climber dislodges a rock, it will still be slow-moving when it reaches the 2nd climber, rather than having fallen a lot farther and hitting harder.

I tend to do just that when traveling loose gullies where rock fall is likely - stay relatively close together. With climbing, I'm all for keeping the climbers apart since the upper one falling off is kind of like a rock coming at you only its on a tether.

If rock fall were likely when bringing up two seconds, I'd say only bring up one at a time so the third can cower hopefully out of the way down below. I've been on loose sections of a route with two climbing pairs but still kept it to one person climbing at a time in that section. 'course, forget about your personal best for pitches in a day. :-)

Bill L


Partner cracklover


Oct 31, 2011, 8:34 AM
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Re: [tolman_paul] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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tolman_paul wrote:
How could they be rated to be used as twin or half, and yet you couldn't mix the two techniques on a pitch??????????????????????

As to advantages of double ropes shortening falls, it's not only from the rope zig zagging less. If fall while making (and missing) a clip, you will be falling double the distance from your harness to your last place of pro, not double the distance from your last piece of pro, up to the clip and back down to your harness.

Your math is off, but the point you're trying to make is a good one.

GO


bearbreeder


Oct 31, 2011, 11:48 PM
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Re: [jktinst] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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heres the response from dead elephant

Hello (name deleted by me),

you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland,

(name deleted by me)
Productmanager Climbing Equipment



jktinst


Nov 1, 2011, 4:09 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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Wow! I am both impressed and a bit leery.

The last sentence seems to imply that it's OK to do this with all double ropes, regardless of their impact force specifications. Although a simple omission of one word could change the whole thing:

"This is exactly the advantage of (our OR these) half ropes compared to twin ropes..."


bearbreeder


Nov 1, 2011, 10:53 PM
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Re: [jktinst] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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jktinst wrote:
Wow! I am both impressed and a bit leery.

The last sentence seems to imply that it's OK to do this with all double ropes, regardless of their impact force specifications. Although a simple omission of one word could change the whole thing:

"This is exactly the advantage of (our OR these) half ropes compared to twin ropes..."

point taken ... though as a user of mammut doubles, im not going to worry about it ...

im not sure how special dead elephant is, as much as i like their ropes ... maybe their ropes are "softer" than their competitors doubles? ... who knows

i suspect them may simply take a more realistic view of the usage of their ropes ...


Partner rgold


Nov 2, 2011, 12:15 PM
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Re: [LostinMaine] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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There's plenty of good advice here and I'm going to try not to duplicate anything already said (if I can remember what I just read, that is).

1. Although it may be that it is ok to alternate between twin-clipping and half-clipping modalities, I just don't see the need. I've been using double ropes for more than twenty years and I almost never encounter a situation that calls for clipping both. On the rare occasions when this happens, I still adhere to the old-fashioned advice to keep the ropes separate. Typically, I'll add a full-length sling to a quick draw, clip one rope to the quick-draw lower biner and the other rope to the end of the full-length sling.

2. Double ropes can be used to belay two seconds at once, but the leader will be forced to balance appropriate double-rope strategy against the need to protect the seconds adequately, and in some cases this can negate the drag-reducing advantage of double ropes. Many times, what works is to have the second who is in the lead re-clip the trailing second's rope in order to keep the belay above the trailing second. But this doesn't work if the ropes are too widely separated for the leading second to reach.

3. I honestly do not believe that there is the slightest advantage to separating the ropes when stacking them on multipitch climbs. One does this on the first pitch because the ropes are already separated, but there is no need and no utility in doing it after that.

That said, handling problems can occur when the ropes have to be draped over a tie-in rather than being piled on a ledge, and this is even more true when the leader is leading consecutive pitches. I have tried and tried and have never had consistent success with the "flip the pile" approach; in such cases the ropes should be re-stacked. so that the leader's lines are coming off the top of the stack.

Another thing I've never succeeded at is flaking the ropes so that each hanging loop is a little shorter than the previous one. I get it going for a while, but inevitably some aspect of managing the two ropes gets in the way and I can't maintain constantly decreasing loops. I think it is better to make quite small loops of equal size; in this configuration it is relatively easy to intervene and neutralize the capturing of some loops by another.

Although I have to take a lot of derision for it, I've found the best solution to double rope management on multipitch climbs is to use Metolious rope hooks. Yeah, it's another gadget to hang from your harness, and I don't bother on shorter multipitch climbs, but somewhere in the 4-6+ pitch range the advantages seem to outweigh the hassle. With a rope hook, you coil the rope onto the hook rather than flaking it (you can flake it too if you want), and the belayer then lifts off consecutive coils when paying out rope to the leader. It's the lifting ability that makes the procedure work. Zero rope hassles, ever.

4. Something that doesn't seem to have received much attention is belaying the leader. If the belayer isn't good at this, a number of the safety advantages of double ropes will be lost. I'm not going to try to write a treatise here, but suffice it to say that the belayer has to be adept at taking in one rope while paying out the other. This requires some new technique and a lot more attention than is required for single-rope belaying.

I'll mention one trick in this regard: watch the ropes, not the climber. Now I don't mean that the belayer should not pay attention to what the leader is doing and whether they seem to be sketched, but rather than continually focusing on the leader, the belayer should alternate glances at the leader with glances at the ropes right in front of them. It is the behavior of the ropes right in front that alerts the belayer to what rope should be paid out and what rope taken in. They won't get this right if they are always watching the leader.

In the special case when there are two seconds, by all means have one handle each rope rather than leaving one with nothing to do and the other to belay with both ropes.

Let me emphasize again that a very attentive belayer is required for proper double-rope management. If your belayer is chatting with the folks on the next route over, they can't do the job properly.

5. The goal in using double ropes is to run parallel lines up the pitch. It isn't always clear how to do this. One thing for the leader to remember is to consult the belayer about which rope to clip, since the belayer may have a better perspective on where the leader will be heading.

It's no big deal to get the ropes crossed once every now and then. But sometimes, you really do want to correct it, even if it means climbing down to do it.

6. On multipitch climbs, the second will inevitably find the the ropes in front are twisted around each other. This happens because the leader and/or second have turned through a full rotation or more on the pitch. This usually happens at the anchors. If the ropes are twisted, the best way to untwist them is to perform the appropriate number of reverse full rotations. Repeatedly lifting one rope over the head and then stepping over it has the effect of introducing twists into the single strand, which may show up as kinks later on.


Partner cracklover


Nov 2, 2011, 1:09 PM
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Re: [rgold] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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Plenty of good points. I'd modify this, though...

rgold wrote:
I'll mention one trick in this regard: watch the ropes, not the climber. Now I don't mean that the belayer should not pay attention to what the leader is doing and whether they seem to be sketched, but rather than continually focusing on the leader, the belayer should alternate glances at the leader with glances at the ropes right in front of them. It is the behavior of the ropes right in front that alerts the belayer to what rope should be paid out and what rope taken in. They won't get this right if they are always watching the leader.

... by saying that when the two ropes are staying nicely in parallel and you see the leader placing a piece that's clearly in line with one strand or the other, it gives you a good chance to get ahead of the game and prepare to feed out rope on that side, while keeping the other rope steady.

GO


bearbreeder


Nov 3, 2011, 12:15 AM
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Re: [rgold] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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good points above

one note is that with ropes tested as twins and doubles ... should your belayer be less than confident at double ropes, its easier to train em on belaying with twins ... and simpler for them

course you dont want to climb with cr@p belayers at all ... but i dont find a whole bunch of partners who are well versed in double ropes, so i often use my doubles as twins the first few times with a newer partner ...


sp115


Nov 3, 2011, 4:50 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
good points above

one note is that with ropes tested as twins and doubles ... should your belayer be less than confident at double ropes, its easier to train em on belaying with twins ... and simpler for them

course you dont want to climb with cr@p belayers at all ... but i dont find a whole bunch of partners who are well versed in double ropes, so i often use my doubles as twins the first few times with a newer partner ...

Yup. One thing I've found that helps is to minimize, when possible, long clips. For instance rather than setting a piece at the absolute limit of my reach and then trying to clip it, I'll stretch to set the piece but then climb up to the biner to make the clip. This keeps both ropes running in and out of the belay device at the same rate. Now obviously this can increase the fall distance (as I was reminded above...), so it's not for every situation.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 3, 2011, 5:25 AM)


blueeyedclimber


Nov 3, 2011, 6:18 AM
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Good advice as usual, Rich. I just have one thing to add to this.

In reply to:
Another thing I've never succeeded at is flaking the ropes so that each hanging loop is a little shorter than the previous one. I get it going for a while, but inevitably some aspect of managing the two ropes gets in the way and I can't maintain constantly decreasing loops. I think it is better to make quite small loops of equal size; in this configuration it is relatively easy to intervene and neutralize the capturing of some loops by another.

One thing I have discovered over the last couple of years is the benefit of redirecting off the anchor to help with managing the loops. I, like a lot of people nowadays, seem to belay off the anchor more times than not. But, if I find myself at a hanging or semi-hanging belay and I can set a high enough anchor, then I redirect instead. The benefit of this is that when I get a loop to exactly the length I want, I just move the belay device to the other side of my stack and continue to belay. Without missing a beat and keeping up with my second I am now feeding out a loop on the other side. This allows me to manage to near perfection, the length of loops that I want.

If I don't feel like I will be able to manage the loops effectively, then I default to shorter same size loops as you mentioned.

Josh


jratliff


Nov 3, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Re: [rgold] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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Would you use the Metolius Rope Hooks when a leader is leading in blocks of say, three pitches?


sp115


Nov 4, 2011, 4:27 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
Good advice as usual, Rich. I just have one thing to add to this.

In reply to:
Another thing I've never succeeded at is flaking the ropes so that each hanging loop is a little shorter than the previous one. I get it going for a while, but inevitably some aspect of managing the two ropes gets in the way and I can't maintain constantly decreasing loops. I think it is better to make quite small loops of equal size; in this configuration it is relatively easy to intervene and neutralize the capturing of some loops by another.

One thing I have discovered over the last couple of years is the benefit of redirecting off the anchor to help with managing the loops. I, like a lot of people nowadays, seem to belay off the anchor more times than not. But, if I find myself at a hanging or semi-hanging belay and I can set a high enough anchor, then I redirect instead. The benefit of this is that when I get a loop to exactly the length I want, I just move the belay device to the other side of my stack and continue to belay. Without missing a beat and keeping up with my second I am now feeding out a loop on the other side. This allows me to manage to near perfection, the length of loops that I want.

If I don't feel like I will be able to manage the loops effectively, then I default to shorter same size loops as you mentioned.

Josh

Josh, I've read this about six times and for the life of me I can't quite figure out what you're doing. Any chance you could provide further explanation? Apologies ahead of time for general daftness…


blueeyedclimber


Nov 4, 2011, 7:10 AM
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sp115 wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
Good advice as usual, Rich. I just have one thing to add to this.

In reply to:
Another thing I've never succeeded at is flaking the ropes so that each hanging loop is a little shorter than the previous one. I get it going for a while, but inevitably some aspect of managing the two ropes gets in the way and I can't maintain constantly decreasing loops. I think it is better to make quite small loops of equal size; in this configuration it is relatively easy to intervene and neutralize the capturing of some loops by another.

One thing I have discovered over the last couple of years is the benefit of redirecting off the anchor to help with managing the loops. I, like a lot of people nowadays, seem to belay off the anchor more times than not. But, if I find myself at a hanging or semi-hanging belay and I can set a high enough anchor, then I redirect instead. The benefit of this is that when I get a loop to exactly the length I want, I just move the belay device to the other side of my stack and continue to belay. Without missing a beat and keeping up with my second I am now feeding out a loop on the other side. This allows me to manage to near perfection, the length of loops that I want.

If I don't feel like I will be able to manage the loops effectively, then I default to shorter same size loops as you mentioned.

Josh

Josh, I've read this about six times and for the life of me I can't quite figure out what you're doing. Any chance you could provide further explanation? Apologies ahead of time for general daftness…

Sure. If I had more time right now (and if I had access to my equipment), I would take some pics, but I will try to explain it.

1) You set your anchor and tie in with rope.
2) With a hanging belay or semi hanging belay, I flake the rope over my tie in starting with long loops and making progressively smaller loops.
3) Attach belay device to belay loop and redirect climber side through power point of anchor. If your anchor is too low, this wont' work.
4) With the belay device on your belay loop right above your tie-in and rope loops, you can move it from one side to the other.
5) With the belay device oriented so that the slack that you are taking in is dropping down to create a loop, you simply move the belay device to the other side of the stack when your loop is where you want it. The slack will now drop to the other side.

Hope this makes sense. It actually works very well and I'm able to manage the rope much better than if I am belaying off the anchor.

Josh


sp115


Nov 4, 2011, 8:54 AM
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Thanks, I get it now - the re-direct keeps the belay device up and towards the anchor and you switch it left to right over the ropes that run to the anchor.


sandstone


Nov 4, 2011, 10:50 AM
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Re: [rgold] Double rope resources? [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
... I have tried and tried and have never had consistent success with the "flip the pile" approach...

Probably the best that be said is that it works some of the time.

In reply to:
... Metolious rope hooks.... the belayer then lifts off consecutive coils when paying out rope to the leader. It's the lifting ability that makes the procedure work. Zero rope hassles, ever.

I hadn't considered rope hooks, but given that kind of success I guess I should try them. Thanks.

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