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Safety question: Dual Karabiners
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wdevine


Nov 8, 2011, 5:59 PM
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Safety question: Dual Karabiners
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Hi all,

Just wanted to get your oppinions on directly linking two karabiners together (without a sling etc). Do you guys have any safety concerns with the karabiners in the event of a fall?

I ask this question more in relation to working from heights safety in the workplace but figure its just as relative here. I have read the Australian standards but can't find anything that relates to my above question.

I would imagine this practice should be avoided however I havent come across any evidence as to why exactly

Would appreciate any feedback you guys may have.
Cheers


Marylandclimber


Nov 8, 2011, 6:09 PM
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Re: [wdevine] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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They say you should avoid it whenever possible and that it's really bad. I think it's because there both metal and cause more damage to each other when moving around or a force pulling on them.


Player


Nov 8, 2011, 6:22 PM
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Re: [wdevine] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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wdevine wrote:
Hi all,

Just wanted to get your oppinions on directly linking two karabiners together (without a sling etc). Do you guys have any safety concerns with the karabiners in the event of a fall?

For falling.. metal is a lot more rigid then a sling. I can see some ways where having 2 biners would increase the chances of odd loading thus increasing the chance for one of them to break. And if they aren't locking, a little twist can easily unclip one.


Mark_Hudon


Nov 8, 2011, 6:31 PM
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Re: [wdevine] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Given your fear, have you ever heard of a biner breaking because it was clipped into another biner?
In reply to:
For that matter, what is the difference between a biner and a pin combo? or a bolt and a biner combo?


shockabuku


Nov 8, 2011, 8:07 PM
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Re: [wdevine] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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This is probably the most notable reason:

Player wrote:
...if they aren't locking, a little twist can easily unclip one.


acorneau


Nov 8, 2011, 8:15 PM
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Re: [wdevine] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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The only issue is with non-locking carabiners twisting and coming unclipped from each other. If you're using lockers that this is not an issue, obviously.

There is also a small chance that one biner could become cross-loaded on the other, but no more than any other time when using a biner.

There is no strength loss when using one carabiner on another.


snoboy


Nov 8, 2011, 11:16 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Truth ^^ biners are, after all, tested for strength on pull test machines that use... wait for it... metal pins to pull against.

Only reasoning I have heard against it is due to possibility of unclipping if twisted.


johnwesely


Nov 9, 2011, 4:12 AM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
Given your fear, have you ever heard of a biner breaking because it was clipped into another biner?
In reply to:
For that matter, what is the difference between a biner and a pin combo? or a bolt and a biner combo?

Why would self proclaimed badass Mark Hudon start posting at a time like this?


Partner camhead


Nov 9, 2011, 6:17 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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People always talk like Metal-on-Metal is a bad thing, but it's actually FUCKING AWESOME.


marc801


Nov 9, 2011, 7:02 AM
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Re: [Player] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Player wrote:
wdevine wrote:
Hi all,

Just wanted to get your oppinions on directly linking two karabiners together (without a sling etc). Do you guys have any safety concerns with the karabiners in the event of a fall?

For falling.. metal is a lot more rigid then a sling. I can see some ways where having 2 biners would increase the chances of odd loading thus increasing the chance for one of them to break. And if they aren't locking, a little twist can easily unclip one.
Two biners on a piton or bolt was common practice from the 40's to the 70's, yet somehow in that time the bases of crags weren't littered with dead climbers from broken or magically opening biners.

This is another case where someone is looking for absolute rules to apply universally instead of learning principles and assessing what is appropriate or inappropriate for a given situation.

Where on earth did this "metal on metal is bad" fallacy come from?


Mark_Hudon


Nov 9, 2011, 7:02 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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??/

Just trying to help. I don't understand your comment.

johnwesely wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
Given your fear, have you ever heard of a biner breaking because it was clipped into another biner? For that matter, what is the difference between a biner and a pin combo? or a bolt and a biner combo?

Why would self proclaimed badass Mark Hudon start posting at a time like this?


johnwesely


Nov 9, 2011, 7:04 AM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
??/

Just trying to help. I don't understand your comment.

johnwesely wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
Given your fear, have you ever heard of a biner breaking because it was clipped into another biner? For that matter, what is the difference between a biner and a pin combo? or a bolt and a biner combo?

Why would self proclaimed badass Mark Hudon start posting at a time like this?

Just referencing your NIAD trip report. I intended no offense.


Mark_Hudon


Nov 9, 2011, 7:56 AM
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No worries.


jae8908


Nov 9, 2011, 1:02 PM
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Re: [wdevine] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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One thing that no one has mentioned yet is that sometimes if you clip a bolt with a biner and then fall on it it can create a small bur or sharp piece of metal sticking up from the inside of the biner. When you hook it into another biner it scars it so that the next time you hook your rope into it, the rope drags across the scar and slowly pulls at the sheath deteriorating it more rapidly. I say this as if the biner has been hooked into the bolt before. I also say this as if you are hooking two quickdraws together with biner touching biner.

EDIT: This is the reason that you always clip the same biner into the bolt and the same one into the rope each time when you are sport climbing.


(This post was edited by jae8908 on Nov 9, 2011, 1:03 PM)


Mark_Hudon


Nov 9, 2011, 4:15 PM
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Re: [jae8908] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Sport climbed for a dozen years, clipped probably thousands of bolts, fell millions of times and have never see a burr on any of my biners.

I'm just saying that, sure, check your biners from time to time but "never clip two biners together" and "always use the same biner to clip bolts" are a little bit far reaching compared to what you should really be concerned with.


(This post was edited by Mark_Hudon on Nov 10, 2011, 8:21 AM)


jae8908


Nov 10, 2011, 1:51 PM
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I've been sport climbing just over a year, clipped probably hundreds of bolts, fell a few dozen times and have seen several burrs on both mine and other's biners.


Mark_Hudon


Nov 10, 2011, 3:08 PM
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Wow! I've seen probably one burr on a biner in my whole climbing life. Are these common commercially available hangers?


jae8908


Nov 10, 2011, 3:44 PM
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omega and bd


jeepnphreak


Nov 10, 2011, 4:52 PM
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Re: [camhead] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
People always talk like Metal-on-Metal is a bad thing, but it's actually FUCKING AWESOME.

Yes I agree that was FUCKING AWESOME!!!!!!


acorneau


Nov 15, 2011, 8:52 AM
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Just saw this article and video on the DMM website:

http://dmmclimbing.com/...tential-rope-damage/

The video starts out on the rudimentary side but things get interesting when they get on the drop tower.


Mark_Hudon


Nov 15, 2011, 11:22 AM
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Dang! Learn something new every day!

Thanks!


jae8908


Nov 15, 2011, 3:52 PM
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acorneau wrote:
Just saw this article and video on the DMM website:

http://dmmclimbing.com/...tential-rope-damage/

The video starts out on the rudimentary side but things get interesting when they get on the drop tower.

This is what I was referring to. and got four 1stars for. lol


bearbreeder


Nov 15, 2011, 8:15 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
Just saw this article and video on the DMM website:

http://dmmclimbing.com/...tential-rope-damage/

The video starts out on the rudimentary side but things get interesting when they get on the drop tower.


thanks for posting this ... i suspect it will take quite a few falls to put that kind of burrs in yr biners

i usually clip the loose side of the draw to the bolt ... but sometimes you forget or yr so sketched you dont effing care

i find it interesting that most people dont differentiate which biner they clip for trad slings ... now granted you fall less and its often on gear ... but there are enough "trad" routes out there with bolts and pins ... and some "trad" climbers do use their slings for some reason when climbing sport

i think a simple check and some fine grit sand paper every now and then would solve the problem ... or if the biner looks that wasted, retire it


shockabuku


Nov 16, 2011, 5:38 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Just saw this article and video on the DMM website:

http://dmmclimbing.com/...tential-rope-damage/

The video starts out on the rudimentary side but things get interesting when they get on the drop tower.


thanks for posting this ... i suspect it will take quite a few falls to put that kind of burrs in yr biners

Surprisingly, no.

In reply to:
i usually clip the loose side of the draw to the bolt ... but sometimes you forget or yr so sketched you dont effing care

i find it interesting that most people dont differentiate which biner they clip for trad slings

I do.

In reply to:
... now granted you fall less and its often on gear ... but there are enough "trad" routes out there with bolts and pins ... and some "trad" climbers do use their slings for some reason when climbing sport

i think a simple check and some fine grit sand paper every now and then would solve the problem ... or if the biner looks that wasted, retire it


shellc0de


Dec 2, 2011, 11:16 AM
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Re: [Player] Safety question: Dual Karabiners [In reply to]
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Ok so why is it that I see people doubling up quickdraws every once in a while, I feel like these pros that have hundreds of draws can find one with a long sling in between.

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