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Pamason91
Nov 26, 2011, 9:07 PM
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Concise question at bottom.
I have been climbing for almost a year now, and do mainly top roping. I generally use a locking and non-locking (O&O) for my master point, but I was wondering if anyone saw a reason that a Rap ring or rigging ring couldn't just be threaded as a master point.
It seems it would be better to me for two reasons, the wear wouldn't be focused into the 'corners' of the biner, and there would be a 0% chance of the gate opening, or being cross loaded. Only con I can think of is a slight loss of overall strength. (My rap rings are 20Kn each, where a biner is 25kn or 28kn depending on which I use.)
Concise Question: Is it a safe practice to use a threaded rap ring as a master point instead of a locking biner?
(This post was edited by Pamason91 on Nov 26, 2011, 9:09 PM)
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vinnie83
Nov 26, 2011, 9:57 PM
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I assume you're talking about incorporating the omega pacific rap rings into an anchor you built and not using fixed rap rings connected to bolts at the top of a climb.
The only rap rings I have experience with are the cheap rappel only ones that I bring along to bail off of on longer routes. They wear quite quickly if you lower off under load and would be a bad choice.
Given that the op rings hold up well to wear I guess they would be safe, but
-how many biners are you wearing out from top roping?
-threading your cordalette through this when equalizing multiple anchor points is a pain
-given that the climber in a top rope scenario should always be below the masterpoint and there should be a somewhat constant (if only slight) tension on the rope the chances of having the rope come unclipped or cross loading are already significantly lower than many other scenarios
I guess I don't see a strong reason to buy a separate dedicated piece of gear for top roping, if you already have rap rings save them for what they were intended for.
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Kartessa
Nov 26, 2011, 11:00 PM
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Pamason91 wrote: Concise Question: Is it a safe practice to use a threaded rap ring as a master point instead of a locking biner?
Its not *Unsafe* but on a 3-point anchor its a pain in the ass to set up.
I guess if youre toproping the shit out of a climb it could be an option, the main reason Im thinking is that its not going to blacken the hell out of your rope (if its steel), and sure, the wear can factor in too. But if those are your concerns, get some SS Lockers, their 40kn strength is more than enough, it doesnt wear fast and wont blacken the rope.
Or you could just do it the way everyone else does:
K.I.S.S.
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Marylandclimber
Nov 27, 2011, 2:49 AM
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I don't see any reason to use them and in my view, it's just another thing to fail.
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surfstar
Nov 27, 2011, 3:33 AM
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I prefer two steel ovals for top roping. Won't wear out and won't turn my roper any more black than it is.
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Pamason91
Nov 27, 2011, 7:15 AM
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Marylandclimber wrote: I don't see any reason to use them and in my view, it's just another thing to fail.
It's not another thing, it would be replacing the MP biner.
There are a few places I set up where from one master point you have access to four separate routes, so if I go with four friends and we do each route once that is quite a few climbs from one master point, so I wouldn't mind threading for a unit that will wear less/more evenly, and avoid cross loading. I was more just making sure there were no obvious safety issues that I was overlooking.
Thanks for your Opinions.
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USnavy
Nov 27, 2011, 9:34 AM
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Pamason91 wrote: Concise question at bottom. I have been climbing for almost a year now, and do mainly top roping. I generally use a locking and non-locking (O&O) for my master point, but I was wondering if anyone saw a reason that a Rap ring or rigging ring couldn't just be threaded as a master point. It seems it would be better to me for two reasons, the wear wouldn't be focused into the 'corners' of the biner, and there would be a 0% chance of the gate opening, or being cross loaded. Only con I can think of is a slight loss of overall strength. (My rap rings are 20Kn each, where a biner is 25kn or 28kn depending on which I use.) Concise Question: Is it a safe practice to use a threaded rap ring as a master point instead of a locking biner?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Nov 27, 2011, 9:38 AM)
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Qozux
Nov 27, 2011, 5:56 PM
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I might be wrong (I often am) but isn't that what this: http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/special-aluminum-carabiners/omni is for?
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styndall
Nov 27, 2011, 6:39 PM
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Qozux wrote: I might be wrong (I often am) but isn't that what this: http://www.petzl.com/en/pro/special-aluminum-carabiners/omni is for?
As you suspect, you're wrong. The page you linked even tells you what that type of carabiner is for.
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Qozux
Nov 27, 2011, 6:44 PM
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aaannndd shame 
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tolman_paul
Nov 28, 2011, 7:52 PM
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I don't see anything unsafe about the practice.
That said, in 25 odd years of climbing I've never had a tr come unclipped from the masterpoint, and I've never had the masterpoint biners get cross loaded. Threading the rope through rap or rigging rings would be something I'm sure I'd get sick of sooner than later.
So unsafe, no, un-necessary, up to you to decide.
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dr_feelgood
Nov 29, 2011, 4:14 AM
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curt wrote: Pamason91 wrote: Concise Question: Is it a safe practice to use a threaded rap ring as a master point instead of a locking biner? It's not unsafe but don't be surprised if we all laugh at you.  Curt
I'm of the opinion that climbers need a minimum of four years experience before attempting to innovate
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Pamason91
Nov 29, 2011, 6:06 AM
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Switching one metal ring for another is innovation?! Just when I finally convince myself this isn't a stagnant sport.
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LostinMaine
Nov 29, 2011, 12:11 PM
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Pamason91 wrote: Switching one metal ring for another is innovation?! Just when I finally convince myself this isn't a stagnant sport.
So - let me get this straight... you think threading 30m of rope through a rap ring is a good idea because it keeps the sport moving? Well, I guess you're right if moving backward is a good option.
I'm not sure what you're looking for as a response. I'll try to make it clear. Don't thread 30m of rope through a rap ring to TR. It's just a dumb idea. You lose convenience and gain zero benefits in the process. You will lose time climbing during anchor construction and TR setup. You will piss yourself off fighting with threading it all of the time. There is a reason the "stagnant" method of two O&O 'biners is used; not because of dogma, but because it really works.
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sp115
Nov 29, 2011, 12:43 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: Pamason91 wrote: Switching one metal ring for another is innovation?! Just when I finally convince myself this isn't a stagnant sport. So - let me get this straight... you think threading 30m of rope through a rap ring is a good idea because it keeps the sport moving? Well, I guess you're right if moving backward is a good option. <snip>.
Re-read the first quote; look up the word facetious, then stop arguing with people who agree with you.*
* insert smiley emoticon to insure the intent of my post isn't misconstrued as malicious.
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Pamason91
Nov 29, 2011, 3:41 PM
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In reply to: So - let me get this straight... you think threading 30m of rope through a rap ring is a good idea because it keeps the sport moving? Well, I guess you're right if moving backward is a good option.
Yea, that was very much so sarcasm. I don't think that using a rap ring is innovation, in any way, shape, or form. It is an option, but not an innovation.
And I don't think this is a stagnant sport. Ropes are getting lighter and stronger, belay/rappel devices are getting increasingly modifiable (i.e. Piranha, Rock Exotica Totem, and Sterling ATS. Which each allow multiple friction settings and uses beyond belaying and rappelling.)
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cracklover
Nov 29, 2011, 4:57 PM
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Pamason91 wrote: Concise question at bottom. I have been climbing for almost a year now, and do mainly top roping. I generally use a locking and non-locking (O&O) for my master point, but I was wondering if anyone saw a reason that a Rap ring or rigging ring couldn't just be threaded as a master point. It seems it would be better to me for two reasons, the wear wouldn't be focused into the 'corners' of the biner, and there would be a 0% chance of the gate opening, or being cross loaded. Only con I can think of is a slight loss of overall strength. (My rap rings are 20Kn each, where a biner is 25kn or 28kn depending on which I use.) Concise Question: Is it a safe practice to use a threaded rap ring as a master point instead of a locking biner?
Safe, sure (so long as you don't use those cheap rolled aluminum ones), but try it a few times, and I think you'll see why people use carabiners. It turns out those gates are awfully convenient.
Before you get tired of it and switch back, just don't do anything stupid. Here's what I foresee:
You suddenly notice you have to pull through a whole bunch of whatever (webbing, rope, slings) for the N-th time, are sick of it, so you figure "well, maybe I can just get away with trying ____________ (fill in the blank) - that'll probably be okay, right?" Think twice...
Cheers,
GO
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LostinMaine
Nov 29, 2011, 5:25 PM
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sp115 wrote: LostinMaine wrote: Pamason91 wrote: Switching one metal ring for another is innovation?! Just when I finally convince myself this isn't a stagnant sport. So - let me get this straight... you think threading 30m of rope through a rap ring is a good idea because it keeps the sport moving? Well, I guess you're right if moving backward is a good option. <snip>. Re-read the first quote; look up the word facetious, then stop arguing with people who agree with you.*
Though it might be sarcasm, given the OP and its context, the reply from the OP is not allowed to be facetious. I forbid it.
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bearbreeder
Nov 29, 2011, 9:15 PM
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it will be "safe" as others have said
however there isnt much point ... biners are pretty cheap ... and unless yr the most hardcore top roping tough guy ... you shouldnt wear em out that quickly
besides once you reach the top after a lead, clipping then lowering off for others to top rope is easier and less prone to error than having to rethread every time ... note the number of accidents when cleaning the anchors ...
KISS
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marc801
Nov 29, 2011, 9:25 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: besides once you reach the top after a lead, clipping then lowering off for others to top rope is easier and less prone to error than having to rethread every time ... note the number of accidents when cleaning the anchors ...
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bearbreeder
Nov 29, 2011, 9:37 PM
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hell likely want to lead eventually if not already ...
complicated generally means bad ...
besides this is RC ... when has any answer have to do with the original question
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tolman_paul
Nov 29, 2011, 9:38 PM
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I forgot to ask the op if he plans to re-tie his slings every time he sets up a tr anchor, or if he's going to clip the the rap ring into a biner?
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ablanchard17
Nov 30, 2011, 3:59 AM
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NO NO NO!
you MUST have at least 6 perfectly equalized, Zero extension. pieces of anchor. All with a double Yates zipper screamer on them. and then another 2 zipper screamers on the masterpoint. Plus a shorty screamer on the belayer and climber.
(Sarcasm)
you are toproping. its totally fine. you wont get anywhere near 22kn. in all reality you could just stick 2 quickdraws on 2 solid bolts, forget about equalization all together and you would still be totally safe on toprope.
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j_ung
Dec 5, 2011, 3:55 PM
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Pamason91 wrote: Concise question at bottom. I have been climbing for almost a year now, and do mainly top roping. I generally use a locking and non-locking (O&O) for my master point, but I was wondering if anyone saw a reason that a Rap ring or rigging ring couldn't just be threaded as a master point. It seems it would be better to me for two reasons, the wear wouldn't be focused into the 'corners' of the biner, and there would be a 0% chance of the gate opening, or being cross loaded. Only con I can think of is a slight loss of overall strength. (My rap rings are 20Kn each, where a biner is 25kn or 28kn depending on which I use.) Concise Question: Is it a safe practice to use a threaded rap ring as a master point instead of a locking biner?
It's not even slightly unsafe, but it will be inconvenient to thread them. I'll second (or third or forth) the suggestion of using steel biners.
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