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johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 4:20 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

There doesn't need to be a cutoff, if a 5.9 or .8 sport route is really quality, a rare few are, then bolt it. I just don't see the point in all the sub 5.11 crappy sport routes. There are thousands of awesome trad climbs at those grades.


jae8908


Nov 28, 2011, 4:37 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Licheness wasn't a great five star climb but it was a fun climb. I don't understand why someone would remove new bolts. They were very new as well as the route just to the left of it. Does anyone know if it is still there? I think it is called Tarzan.


Gmburns2000


Nov 28, 2011, 5:03 PM
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Re: [sp115] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Knowing John...

sungam wrote:
Nah, it's more funny this way.

^^ is spot on.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 5:43 PM
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jae8908 wrote:
Licheness wasn't a great five star climb but it was a fun climb. I don't understand why someone would remove new bolts. They were very new as well as the route just to the left of it. Does anyone know if it is still there? I think it is called Tarzan.

Licheness was a zero star climb if I ever saw one, a perfect example of sub-mediocrity.


petsfed


Nov 28, 2011, 6:01 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
There doesn't need to be a cutoff, if a 5.9 or .8 sport route is really quality, a rare few are, then bolt it. I just don't see the point in all the sub 5.11 crappy sport routes. There are thousands of awesome trad climbs at those grades.

Is this the point then? A sport vs. trad debate?

I've found that its really hard to find an enduring, classic line, no matter what the protection scheme, under 5.10. I think the Durrance Crack, and the Bastille Crack, and a litany of other sub-5.10, traditionally protected routes to be just lousy aside from a single pitch. Its been my experience that a truly high quality 5.10 route is a rarity. The only reason we don't see as many sub 5.10 sport routes of such high quality as those "classics" is because sport climbing at that grade is not a century old.

I'm not arguing for anyone to bolt the planet. I come from a gear-protected background, and climb almost exclusively at a crack climbing area. I'm saying that your statement about easy to moderate sport climbing drawing crowds ignores that hard sport climbing also draws crowds, but maybe of sort you understand better. Moreover, it SUCKS to climb at a crag that lacks warmups if your limit is well represented at those crags. What you're arguing for is a world where anyone who can't consistently onsight 5.11+ shouldn't even think about moving towards pure gymnastic movement as a goal in and of itself. This ignores entirely the fact that if you eliminate the crappy sport climbs (and I agree, there are a LOT of them), getting to the good stuff in, say, Colorado, means that you get to spend a lot of time in death fall territory before you have the requisite technical skill to just hang there with a dumb look on your face at each bolt. That's a pretty steep learning curve if your end goal is to *remove* risk from the equation.

I'm not interested in a sport vs. trad debate, and I refuse to engage in one. All I'm saying is that a "you must be this rad to enter" sign on sport climbing is insulting, and presupposes that what attracted you to climbing is what attracted me to climbing. This isn't 1973, climbing hasn't been a unified community since before the advent of "sport" climbing, in terms of perspective, goals or ethics.

Of course, this might all just be a massive troll, in which case I need to spit the hook out and go about my business.


sp115


Nov 28, 2011, 6:04 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
I was never a beginner.
Sorry Petsfed, but this ^^ might have been worth all the carnage.


(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 28, 2011, 6:07 PM)


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 6:24 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
Moreover, it SUCKS to climb at a crag that lacks warmups if your limit is well represented at those crags. What you're arguing for is a world where anyone who can't consistently onsight 5.11+ shouldn't even think about moving towards pure gymnastic movement as a goal in and of itself.

It doesn't suck to climb at areas like that. It just sucks to warm up at them. I never said anything about onsighting anything. Even if we eliminated everything but the classics under 5.11, you would only need to be able to bolt to bolt 5.11a sport, hardly a herculean task.

In reply to:
This ignores entirely the fact that if you eliminate the crappy sport climbs (and I agree, there are a LOT of them), getting to the good stuff in, say, Colorado, means that you get to spend a lot of time in death fall territory before you have the requisite technical skill to just hang there with a dumb look on your face at each bolt.

Who ever said anything about having to climb R or X rated routes? Unless Colorado is way more hardcore than even North Carolina, there is no way you would have to climb a bunch of scary stuff to get good enough to climb 5.10 or 5.11 sport. What a crazy straw man.


petsfed


Nov 28, 2011, 7:38 PM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.


johnwesely


Nov 28, 2011, 7:51 PM
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Re: [petsfed] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...


guangzhou


Nov 29, 2011, 12:51 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Nov 29, 2011, 3:18 AM)


viciado


Nov 29, 2011, 2:46 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
Just because the routes are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to bolt them.

fixed for ya'


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 3:47 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.

I can think of one 5.9 at Sandrock that is sort of cool. Ankles Away, and the two .9s on the Rehab Slab are actually pretty decent, but I am having a hard time thinking of tons of excellent sub 5.10 sport routes.


guangzhou


Nov 29, 2011, 4:19 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.

I can think of one 5.9 at Sandrock that is sort of cool. Ankles Away, and the two .9s on the Rehab Slab are actually pretty decent, but I am having a hard time thinking of tons of excellent sub 5.10 sport routes.
So, without much effort you listed three routes of the top of your head. Guess you just proved that Routes below 5.10 can be good.

On a side note, if you pull the bolts from the easier routes just to get rid of crowds, you'll just make the 5.10 or 5.11, or 5.12 what ever the lowest number is, that much more crowded as climbers climb draw to draw.

Plenty of routes out there, avoid the ones that don't appeal to you.


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 5:12 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
petsfed wrote:
Again, I come from a predominantly crack climbing area: Vedauwoo. I know that while 5.11 crack climbing is similarly difficult in terms of technical and physical demands, they require vastly different technical skills. So that means gear protected face climbing to get better at face climbing. And in Colorado, that means either runout granite slabs (or runout sandstone slabs in Eldo and the Flatirons) if you're interested in improving your face climbing skills. I actually looked, in terms of good routes in the 5.11 range in Colorado, the crux is either crack climbing, or runout.

Also, when you start the day by projecting, you quickly lose your taste for climbing. I mean, if my two options were to keep dealing with runouts or going bolt-to-bolt on everything if I eventually wanted to sport climb at a high level, I might quit climbing. That sucks, period. Until I can at least send the warmup without falling, I wouldn't want to climb at that area, and while I don't speak for all climbers, I do know that I speak for a large number of them.

If you don't want it bad enough...

I think a better solution is to avoid under 5.10 sport routes if you think they all suck.

I've climbed in your neck of the woods, Foster Falls, Sand Rock, the creek, all over north Carolina. I know of several excellent below 5.10 routes.

I can think of one 5.9 at Sandrock that is sort of cool. Ankles Away, and the two .9s on the Rehab Slab are actually pretty decent, but I am having a hard time thinking of tons of excellent sub 5.10 sport routes.
So, without much effort you listed three routes of the top of your head. Guess you just proved that Routes below 5.10 can be good.

On a side note, if you pull the bolts from the easier routes just to get rid of crowds, you'll just make the 5.10 or 5.11, or 5.12 what ever the lowest number is, that much more crowded as climbers climb draw to draw.

Plenty of routes out there, avoid the ones that don't appeal to you.

I never said they can't be good, but most of them are not. Climbers, even noobs, should not be subjected to crappy routes. It just as much not fair to them as it is unfair to me that they are even climbing.


shockabuku


Nov 29, 2011, 5:22 AM
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It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 5:45 AM
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shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.


lena_chita
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Nov 29, 2011, 6:15 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.

QUALITY is a very subjective thing.

I know it is hard, but do try to imagine yourself loving climbing, and only able to climb 5.10. You DON'T know how awesome those 5.12s are, and seeing all those 5-star-rated 5.13s and 5.14s is doing squat for you, even though you admire the videos of elite climbers making impossible moves look so easy on those 5-star rated 5.14s.

All you have he ability for is 5.10 routes and under. And all you have to compare those routes to are other routes of the same grade. I can guarantee that you will quickly decide that some of those 5.10 routes are awesome, and worth every one of the 5 stars, compared to some other 5.10s.

It is the truth that if you look in almost any guidebook for almost any area, you are likely to see more 5-star rated routes in 5.12 and up category than you will see 5-star rated rated routes in 5.10 and under category.

And the reason for that is because people doing the ratings are usually strong climbers. And you are more likely to rate highly a route that challenged you and made you think and work, than a route you walked up in your approach shoes while talking to your belayer and scratching ass with one hand. It's a bias.


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 6:20 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
shockabuku wrote:
It's undoubtedly difficult to appreciate the quality of sub 5.10 routes from such a lofty vantage as yours.

Some of my favorite routes are sub 5.10, but sub 5.10 sport routes are nearly always awful.

QUALITY is a very subjective thing.

I know it is hard, but do try to imagine yourself loving climbing, and only able to climb 5.10. You DON'T know how awesome those 5.12s are, and seeing all those 5-star-rated 5.13s and 5.14s is doing squat for you, even though you admire the videos of elite climbers making impossible moves look so easy on those 5-star rated 5.14s.

All you have he ability for is 5.10 routes and under. And all you have to compare those routes to are other routes of the same grade. I can guarantee that you will quickly decide that some of those 5.10 routes are awesome, and worth every one of the 5 stars, compared to some other 5.10s.

It is the truth that if you look in almost any guidebook for almost any area, you are likely to see more 5-star rated routes in 5.12 and up category than you will see 5-star rated rated routes in 5.10 and under category.

And the reason for that is because people doing the ratings are usually strong climbers. And you are more likely to rate highly a route that challenged you and made you think and work, than a route you walked up in your approach shoes while talking to your belayer and scratching ass with one hand. It's a bias.

You are wrong. Noobs are just bad at judging quality. It is like you saw someone eating MacDonalds and didn't try to stop them! I can't imagine you wouldn't do that. It is up to more experienced climbers to set the standards for quality. In the end, it is best for everyone because the noobs will not have to be embarrassed about climbing low quality routes once they gain more perspective.


lena_chita
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Nov 29, 2011, 7:04 AM
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johnwesely wrote:
You are wrong. Noobs are just bad at judging quality. It is like you saw someone eating MacDonalds and didn't try to stop them! I can't imagine you wouldn't do that. It is up to more experienced climbers to set the standards for quality. In the end, it is best for everyone because the noobs will not have to be embarrassed about climbing low quality routes once they gain more perspective.

You really don't know anyone who has been climbing for a long time and is not a n00b, but is only climbing 5.10?

While it is true that n00bs are bad at judging quality, my point was that stronger climbers are guilty of a grade bias when judging quality.

Ask a 5.14 climber how many of those 5.11/5.12s that YOU rated 5 stars are 5 star routes in their opinion, compared to all the 5.13s and 5.14th that they have done, and their opinion would likely be "meh, not very many".

Really, look at your own log, you can see the bias there. Every 5.12 route you have ever climbed is 5 stars, really?


johnwesely


Nov 29, 2011, 7:08 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
You are wrong. Noobs are just bad at judging quality. It is like you saw someone eating MacDonalds and didn't try to stop them! I can't imagine you wouldn't do that. It is up to more experienced climbers to set the standards for quality. In the end, it is best for everyone because the noobs will not have to be embarrassed about climbing low quality routes once they gain more perspective.

You really don't know anyone who has been climbing for a long time and is not a n00b, but is only climbing 5.10?

While it is true that n00bs are bad at judging quality, my point was that stronger climbers are guilty of a grade bias when judging quality.

Ask a 5.14 climber how many of those 5.11/5.12s that YOU rated 5 stars are 5 star routes in their opinion, compared to all the 5.13s and 5.14th that they have done, and their opinion would likely be "meh, not very many".

Really, look at your own log, you can see the bias there. Every 5.12 route you have ever climbed is 5 stars, really?

I am very easily excited by rockclimbing, so I tend to give routes I like 5 stars. I like lots of sub 5.10 routes, but almost every sub 5.10 sport route is a pile.

Edit: I also do not ever get on routes that are not highly recommended. It is sort of embarrassing to be seen climbing lame routes. You can do it if you want.


(This post was edited by johnwesely on Nov 29, 2011, 7:13 AM)


fluffybynomeans


Nov 29, 2011, 8:45 AM
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I completely agree with you John.

The barrier to entry should be 5.10. I have never climbed a bolted sport route in my life. My very first trad route was a 5.8 in the Gunks 14 years ago. I am now climbing 5.7 trad in my old age and after a work injury. I have no qualms about any bolts being chopped. It gives you a false sense of security anyways.

If more routes were bolted we'd have so much wear and tear that more locations would be closed by park services. Crowds of punks would get out of hand and ruin it for most people. I say this because i've seen it in the 18 years that i have been climbing all over the US...lived in Boulder, Tahoe, the New, Seneca and North Conway. There are people that just do not respect the local climbing community and with more of them around it will cause enormous damage.

Anything bolted under 5.10 is for little girls, feel free to ad lib another noun.


petsfed


Nov 30, 2011, 7:28 AM
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Re: [fluffybynomeans] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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fluffybynomeans wrote:
Crowds of punks would get out of hand and ruin it for most people. I say this because i've seen it in the 18 years that i have been climbing all over the US...lived in Boulder, Tahoe, the New, Seneca and North Conway. There are people that just do not respect the local climbing community and with more of them around it will cause enormous damage.

Because it was the crowds of punks that got bolting banned in the Boulder area, not a few local hard persons chopping each other's routes, defacing the cliffs, etc.

Right.

Also, never climbed a bolted sport route in your life? Jog on buddy. With climbing in particular, the value is often found through experience. So if there are a great mass of people finding value in one particular experience, and you're calling that experience invalid without ever having experienced it, I don't really have a polite response to that.

At least johnwesely has the experience to say that the overwhelming majority of easy sport routes aren't that good (a sentiment I agree with, even though I dispute the cognitive leap he takes from it).


lena_chita
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Nov 30, 2011, 8:21 AM
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Re: [petsfed] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
At least johnwesely has the experience to say that the overwhelming majority of easy sport routes aren't that good (a sentiment I agree with, even though I dispute the cognitive leap he takes from it).

+1


Partner cracklover


Nov 30, 2011, 9:21 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Lichenness Stripped of Bolts [In reply to]
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johnwesely wrote:
sp115 wrote:
petsfed wrote:
And I'm saying that there is no acceptable minimum grade for outdoor climbing that isn't ripped, potentially uncomfortably so, from the speaker's own ass.

I agree, a 5.4 sport route is probably a waste of bolts. That doesn't mean that they should be explicitly prohibited, either officially or by the community at large. If we just say "all routes must be 5.9 (for instance) to deserve bolts", then two things will happen: a lot of otherwise good (not great, or classic, but good) routes will get put up at 5.8 or under that are straight up death routes for anyone trying to break into that grade AND you'll see pretty serious grade creep as more 5.8, 5.7, even 5.6 routes get called 5.9 just to fit this arbitrary cutoff.

If you develop routes and are concerned about crowding, then don't develop a crag that will have that problem, at all. Don't put in the bolts for harder projects, don't put in the bolts for warmups. Don't develop the crag period.

You're arguing for a universe where climbers who can't onsite at a certain level don't count. My claim is that whatever the cutoff, it will be arbitrary, needlessly elitist, and counterproductive.

On behalf of all the fish in the barrel, I'm formally asking Johnwesely to put away his gun.

Just because the fish are easy, does not mean you can take away my right to shoot them.

How is it that no-one noticed this gem?

Sorry John, if I'm not allowed to bolt easy mediocre lines, then you are not allowed to shoot easy fish with your mediocre troll.

You must desist immediately, or your argument will be chopped, and the responsibility for its demise will be on your own head.

GO


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Nov 30, 2011, 9:26 AM
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Oh, and regarding john's silly argument: There's a lot of merit to bolting a few routes as warmups at any crag. For example, if most of the routes at a crag are 5.10/5.11, there need to be a few 5.9/5.10 routes bolted. Even if they're crappy. The side benefit is that it also gives the weaker members of your party a chance to climb, too.

GO

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