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6pacfershur


Nov 30, 2011, 6:14 PM
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what is a 1%er
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i searched the forums and didnt find this, so....how much money do you have to make to be in the 1%?
another thread quoted $350K per year, i called bravo sierra on that; i googled How Many Americans Are Millionaires and got a wide range of answers: 8.4 million, 10 mil, 3.1 mil, 6.7 mil, etc....3.1 million is very close to 1% of the US population; yes, i know, who gives a shit


lena_chita
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Nov 30, 2011, 6:49 PM
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Re: [6pacfershur] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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I believe the 1% being above $350K that has been mentioned is top 1% for AGI (adjusted gross income). The total income before all deductions is probably more like $500K for the top 1%.

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.


guangzhou


Nov 30, 2011, 7:01 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
I believe the 1% being above $350K that has been mentioned is top 1% for AGI (adjusted gross income). The total income before all deductions is probably more like $500K for the top 1%.

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

Considering how many Indonesians I personally know who earn this much and are definitely not in the countries top one percent of earner, I have trouble believing 350,000 USD gets you in the top 1% in America.


I do agree on your observation about making a million versus owning a million. I do still think that the top 1%, very small number of the population, earn more than 1 million a year.

a 6 figure income in America isn't uncommon these days.


6pacfershur


Nov 30, 2011, 7:22 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

yes, i understand the difference between assets and income; the freaking mayor in the town next to me grosses $500k a year!


guangzhou


Dec 1, 2011, 12:07 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
lena_chita wrote:

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

yes, i understand the difference between assets and income; the freaking mayor in the town next to me grosses $500k a year!

I doubt he is in the top 1%.

Of course, I see nothing wrong with people going out and trying to earn large sums of money either.


Partner rrrADAM


Dec 1, 2011, 3:41 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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Long before "occupy" started using '1%', it was used by motorcycle enthusiests to describe bikers who gave the majority of bikers a bad name... Those 'outlaw bikers' made a patch and wore it as a badge of honor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/...e_club#One_percenter

I know 2 well, through recovery, who wear this patch. One of them is a Long Shoreman at the port in Long Beach, and he earns about $300K per year operating the gantry cranes that offload the ships, and thinks it's funny that he is considered a 1%er in that way... He spends him money gambling and on escorts.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Dec 1, 2011, 3:46 AM)


Allfred


Dec 1, 2011, 5:27 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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Page 34 should give you some supporting documents:

http://www.census.gov/...2011pubs/p60-239.pdf

However all that tells you is that over 200K is 3.9% of the population. You should notice the difference between the Mean and the Median and be able to infer something from that as well.

page 41 shows the income limits for up to the 95th percentile. 180K gets you in the top 5%.

Pg 61 and 62 are interesting too.


Allfred


Dec 1, 2011, 5:39 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
I believe the 1% being above $350K that has been mentioned is top 1% for AGI (adjusted gross income). The total income before all deductions is probably more like $500K for the top 1%.

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

Considering how many Indonesians I personally know who earn this much and are definitely not in the countries top one percent of earner, I have trouble believing 350,000 USD gets you in the top 1% in America.


I do agree on your observation about making a million versus owning a million. I do still think that the top 1%, very small number of the population, earn more than 1 million a year.

a 6 figure income in America isn't uncommon these days.

Study these two links:
https://www.cia.gov/...ctbook/geos/id.htmll

https://www.cia.gov/...actbook/geos/us.html

Look at the differences in gdp per person: $4,200 in Indo and $47,200 in USA. Now look at the "Poverty rate" and the "Household income or consumption by percent share" categories and see that they are about equal.

There are only two possibilities: 1.) You are full of shit. 2.) You only know people in the 1%. I'm picking 1.)


lena_chita
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Dec 1, 2011, 8:16 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
I believe the 1% being above $350K that has been mentioned is top 1% for AGI (adjusted gross income). The total income before all deductions is probably more like $500K for the top 1%.

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

Considering how many Indonesians I personally know who earn this much and are definitely not in the countries top one percent of earner, I have trouble believing 350,000 USD gets you in the top 1% in America.
...
a 6 figure income in America isn't uncommon these days.

The $350K figure comes fro source that looks trustworthy to me. All the other numbers that I've seen don't substantially disagree. You are basing your "trouble believing" on what exactly?

6-figure salaries are not uncommon? Yeah, for some. But median household income in the US is somewhere around $50K. $350K AGI is 7 times more than that, I really have no trouble picturing this distribution.


6pacfershur


Dec 1, 2011, 9:32 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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good morning everyone....listen to some sound-bytes of OWS protestors; they almost always refer to the 1% as owning or controlling wealth, that means assets, not wages...........i know a dentist, a plumber and a commercial fisherman who make at least $350k per year; they are great people, great climbers and work their ass off; if this is the type of workers OWS is against, i withdrawal my support


(This post was edited by 6pacfershur on Dec 1, 2011, 9:34 AM)


rmsusa


Dec 1, 2011, 10:12 AM
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Re: [6pacfershur] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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And ..... if you look at assets, not income, the OWS is railing against a good percentage of retirees, who have very small incomes, but, sometimes, significant wealth that they spend down with time. I'm not sure I have anything against someone who worked hard, saved, invested well and now enjoys it.

I think the (asset/income, gross/AGI, %of what?) confusion is just part of what I perceive as the generally unfocused character of the OWS phenomenon.


scrapedape


Dec 1, 2011, 11:33 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
I believe the 1% being above $350K that has been mentioned is top 1% for AGI (adjusted gross income). The total income before all deductions is probably more like $500K for the top 1%.

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

Considering how many Indonesians I personally know who earn this much and are definitely not in the countries top one percent of earner, I have trouble believing 350,000 USD gets you in the top 1% in America.


I do agree on your observation about making a million versus owning a million. I do still think that the top 1%, very small number of the population, earn more than 1 million a year.

a 6 figure income in America isn't uncommon these days.

Why worry about actual data when you can just pull numbers out of your ass?

http://www.census.gov/.../hhinc/new06_000.htm

This indicates that 250k is a 98th percentile (top 2%) level for household income in the US.


guangzhou


Dec 1, 2011, 5:57 PM
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Re: [Allfred] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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Allfred wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
I believe the 1% being above $350K that has been mentioned is top 1% for AGI (adjusted gross income). The total income before all deductions is probably more like $500K for the top 1%.

And don't confuse a millionaire (someone whose total assets are valued at more than a million) with someone EARNING 1million a year. Remember, a lot of small business owners are probably millionaires if you count their total assets, but they pay themselves a relatively small annual salary.

I really do not have any trouble believing that $350K annual AGI puts you into the top 1%.

Considering how many Indonesians I personally know who earn this much and are definitely not in the countries top one percent of earner, I have trouble believing 350,000 USD gets you in the top 1% in America.


I do agree on your observation about making a million versus owning a million. I do still think that the top 1%, very small number of the population, earn more than 1 million a year.

a 6 figure income in America isn't uncommon these days.

Study these two links:
https://www.cia.gov/...ctbook/geos/id.htmll

https://www.cia.gov/...actbook/geos/us.html

Look at the differences in gdp per person: $4,200 in Indo and $47,200 in USA. Now look at the "Poverty rate" and the "Household income or consumption by percent share" categories and see that they are about equal.

There are only two possibilities: 1.) You are full of shit. 2.) You only know people in the 1%. I'm picking 1.)

Come down, I will introduce you to a few of the people clearing 350,000 a year right here in Surabaya. We cans tart with the my climbing gym membership roster.

GDP per person here, you really need to visit Indonesia if you believe that number to be an accurate representation. I can take you to the cliff and I develop and you can meet plenty of people, the entire village, who don't clear 1000 USD a year.

During interview, I was asking potential job candidates what they made at their full time job, non cleared 100 USD a month, about half made 60 USD a month. All have motorcycles tot ravel with, and a house with electricity and running water in the city limits.

Reading statistics online is no substitute for seeing things first hand.

Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.


ubu


Dec 1, 2011, 7:10 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

That is quite extraordinary. You must have set up shop in a very unusual locale.

guangzhou wrote:
On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

If 100 families net $10k/yr and 1 family nets $1B/yr, the median (not mean) household income is....$10k/yr.

Annual median household income in the US is around $50k.


guangzhou


Dec 1, 2011, 7:51 PM
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ubu wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

That is quite extraordinary. You must have set up shop in a very unusual locale.

guangzhou wrote:
On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

If 100 families net $10k/yr and 1 family nets $1B/yr, the median (not mean) household income is....$10k/yr.

Annual median household income in the US is around $50k.

Not an unusual local, money in Indonesia is consolidated in two main places. Jakarta mostly followed by Surabaya. Much money is invested in Bali and Papua, but the money is still in Jakarta. We are also targeting a very specific income level with our business model. 15 USD to climb for a day is not accessible to the average Indonesian or much of the Indonesian middle class. Our Market is defined as Middle up.

Our next couple of gym locations will be in JK because the market there is much bigger.

Again, looking at the stats doesn't give you a good idea of what life is like here. Distribution of wealth here is very different than in America.

Good to see you know you math vocab. I doubt anyone actually knows what the median income per family is in Indonesia. This is a country that doesn't even know it's actual population because they don't count all tribes, outer islands barely get counted.

Here is what I know. When I met my wife, who is Indonesian with a college degree, she was earning 123 USD a month. She took the job because it was double what she was being paid at her previous job. She drove a 3 year old Chevy, we still have it, had no debt, and belong to a fitness center. (Fairly middle Class life)

Not sure what your Median example has to do with Indonesia and my post. Can you clarify so I don't assume things.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Dec 1, 2011, 7:59 PM)


dan2see


Dec 2, 2011, 12:19 AM
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An inch is as good as a mile.

Before OWS became popular, I used the word "elite" meaning anybody who has the power to make decisions that affect my world. I include CEO's, big owners, and some government.

In the movie "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof", the 1% guy was called "Big Daddy", he was a wealthy cotton tycoon. Everybody else acted or reacted around him because they had no choice.

Here is Wikipedia's take on elite:
Wikipedia wrote:
Elite (occasionally spelled Úlite) (Latin, electus - "chosen") refers to an exceptional or privileged group that wields considerable power within its sphere of influence. Depending on the context, this power might be physical, spiritual, intellectual or financial.

Here is Wikipedia's take on 1%
Wikipedia wrote:
The One Percent is a 2006 documentary about the growing wealth gap between America's wealthy elite compared to the overall citizenry. It was created by Jamie Johnson, an heir to the Johnson & Johnson fortune, and produced by Jamie Johnson and Nick Kurzon. The film's title refers to the top one percent of Americans in terms of wealth, who controlled 42.2 percent of total financial wealth in 2004.

In our history, we sometimes see some powerless group decide they are fed up and can't take it anymore. There's some other folks who have the power to make the powerless group miserable for a long time. The transition is always opposed by the folks in power.

Folks take sides and argue, which is easy for me because I'm right, and also I'm more clever than you. You'll get a lot noise, a lot of debate, and usually somebody's blood.

Eventually the powerless group finds a way to get along with the elite. Then it's somebody else's turn.


ubu


Dec 2, 2011, 4:19 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
ubu wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

That is quite extraordinary. You must have set up shop in a very unusual locale.

guangzhou wrote:
On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

If 100 families net $10k/yr and 1 family nets $1B/yr, the median (not mean) household income is....$10k/yr.

Annual median household income in the US is around $50k.

Not an unusual local, money in Indonesia is consolidated in two main places. Jakarta mostly followed by Surabaya. Much money is invested in Bali and Papua, but the money is still in Jakarta. We are also targeting a very specific income level with our business model. 15 USD to climb for a day is not accessible to the average Indonesian or much of the Indonesian middle class. Our Market is defined as Middle up.

Our next couple of gym locations will be in JK because the market there is much bigger.

Again, looking at the stats doesn't give you a good idea of what life is like here. Distribution of wealth here is very different than in America.

I live in one of the most affluent areas in the US, but there is no way the *median* income of members at my climbing gym is anywhere near the level you're talking about. Of course I have no idea what the mean income might look like -- a couple uber-rich people could shift the numbers substantially.

In reply to:
Not sure what your Median example has to do with Indonesia and my post. Can you clarify so I don't assume things.

See above. I was curious if your typical member rakes in $175k/yr, or if the average salary across your clientele is $175k/yr. If the former...wow.


guangzhou


Dec 2, 2011, 5:53 AM
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ubu wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
ubu wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

That is quite extraordinary. You must have set up shop in a very unusual locale.

guangzhou wrote:
On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

If 100 families net $10k/yr and 1 family nets $1B/yr, the median (not mean) household income is....$10k/yr.

Annual median household income in the US is around $50k.

Not an unusual local, money in Indonesia is consolidated in two main places. Jakarta mostly followed by Surabaya. Much money is invested in Bali and Papua, but the money is still in Jakarta. We are also targeting a very specific income level with our business model. 15 USD to climb for a day is not accessible to the average Indonesian or much of the Indonesian middle class. Our Market is defined as Middle up.

Our next couple of gym locations will be in JK because the market there is much bigger.

Again, looking at the stats doesn't give you a good idea of what life is like here. Distribution of wealth here is very different than in America.

I live in one of the most affluent areas in the US, but there is no way the *median* income of members at my climbing gym is anywhere near the level you're talking about. Of course I have no idea what the mean income might look like -- a couple uber-rich people could shift the numbers substantially.

In reply to:
Not sure what your Median example has to do with Indonesia and my post. Can you clarify so I don't assume things.

See above. I was curious if your typical member rakes in $175k/yr, or if the average salary across your clientele is $175k/yr. If the former...wow.

You would have to experience Indonesia, or another developing nation, first hand to understand the financial situation here. Especially when dealing with such an exclusive/elite idea as a air-conditioned climbing gym.


scrapedape


Dec 2, 2011, 5:59 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
Come down, I will introduce you to a few of the people clearing 350,000 a year right here in Surabaya. We cans tart with the my climbing gym membership roster.

GDP per person here, you really need to visit Indonesia if you believe that number to be an accurate representation. I can take you to the cliff and I develop and you can meet plenty of people, the entire village, who don't clear 1000 USD a year.

During interview, I was asking potential job candidates what they made at their full time job, non cleared 100 USD a month, about half made 60 USD a month. All have motorcycles tot ravel with, and a house with electricity and running water in the city limits.

Reading statistics online is no substitute for seeing things first hand.

Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

How does this square with your earlier claim that $350K wouldn't be top 1% in Indonesia, let alone the US?


guangzhou


Dec 2, 2011, 5:13 PM
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scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Come down, I will introduce you to a few of the people clearing 350,000 a year right here in Surabaya. We cans tart with the my climbing gym membership roster.

GDP per person here, you really need to visit Indonesia if you believe that number to be an accurate representation. I can take you to the cliff and I develop and you can meet plenty of people, the entire village, who don't clear 1000 USD a year.

During interview, I was asking potential job candidates what they made at their full time job, non cleared 100 USD a month, about half made 60 USD a month. All have motorcycles tot ravel with, and a house with electricity and running water in the city limits.

Reading statistics online is no substitute for seeing things first hand.

Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

How does this square with your earlier claim that $350K wouldn't be top 1% in Indonesia, let alone the US?

Because the top 1% here earn much more. We're talking about people who own several oil, mining operation, and other huge companies that deal in Natural recourse.

One person I climb worth here own four shopping malls, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Indonesia and a chain of 5 start hotels in each of those countries.

I would bet a top 1% in America spend more than 350,000 USD on a house mortgage annually.

I agree 350,000 get you in the high tax rate with the 1%, but you're not one of them.


scrapedape


Dec 3, 2011, 11:41 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Come down, I will introduce you to a few of the people clearing 350,000 a year right here in Surabaya. We cans tart with the my climbing gym membership roster.

GDP per person here, you really need to visit Indonesia if you believe that number to be an accurate representation. I can take you to the cliff and I develop and you can meet plenty of people, the entire village, who don't clear 1000 USD a year.

During interview, I was asking potential job candidates what they made at their full time job, non cleared 100 USD a month, about half made 60 USD a month. All have motorcycles tot ravel with, and a house with electricity and running water in the city limits.

Reading statistics online is no substitute for seeing things first hand.

Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

How does this square with your earlier claim that $350K wouldn't be top 1% in Indonesia, let alone the US?

Because the top 1% here earn much more. We're talking about people who own several oil, mining operation, and other huge companies that deal in Natural recourse.

One person I climb worth here own four shopping malls, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Indonesia and a chain of 5 start hotels in each of those countries.

I would bet a top 1% in America spend more than 350,000 USD on a house mortgage annually.

I agree 350,000 get you in the high tax rate with the 1%, but you're not one of them.

Look, myself and others have posted links to statistics indicating that $350K is the rough cutoff point for the top 1% in the US. You continue to counter this with anecdotes and conjecture. Why should we believe you are right?

Moreover, you have yourself talked about how many people you see making less than $100/month and whole villages making less than $1000/year. So how does that support your claim that 1% are making 350K? An alternative interpretation of your observations is that your clientele and climbing partners are more like the top 0.1 or 0.01%.

It's easy to get blinded by what we regard as normal. If I only based the numbers on the people I see on a regular basis, I would guess that a typical HH income in the US is somewhere on the order of $100K, because I live in an expensive city and hang out predominantly with professionals in their early 30s. I know this isn't the case, however, because other people have actually collected data on this, and found that median HH income is about half that level.


guangzhou


Dec 3, 2011, 8:49 PM
Post #22 of 90 (2598 views)
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Re: [scrapedape] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Come down, I will introduce you to a few of the people clearing 350,000 a year right here in Surabaya. We cans tart with the my climbing gym membership roster.

GDP per person here, you really need to visit Indonesia if you believe that number to be an accurate representation. I can take you to the cliff and I develop and you can meet plenty of people, the entire village, who don't clear 1000 USD a year.

During interview, I was asking potential job candidates what they made at their full time job, non cleared 100 USD a month, about half made 60 USD a month. All have motorcycles tot ravel with, and a house with electricity and running water in the city limits.

Reading statistics online is no substitute for seeing things first hand.

Average income of an Adult member of the climbing gym I own here in Indonesia is 175,000 USD per person. I have at least 5 members who clear 1/2 million U.S. a year and I have far less than 1% of Surabaya as members of my gym.

On averages, if one person is making 1000 a year and the other making 2 million a year, the average income of these two people just over 1 Million per person.

How does this square with your earlier claim that $350K wouldn't be top 1% in Indonesia, let alone the US?

Because the top 1% here earn much more. We're talking about people who own several oil, mining operation, and other huge companies that deal in Natural recourse.

One person I climb worth here own four shopping malls, Singapore, Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Indonesia and a chain of 5 start hotels in each of those countries.

I would bet a top 1% in America spend more than 350,000 USD on a house mortgage annually.

I agree 350,000 get you in the high tax rate with the 1%, but you're not one of them.

Look, myself and others have posted links to statistics indicating that $350K is the rough cutoff point for the top 1% in the US. You continue to counter this with anecdotes and conjecture. Why should we believe you are right?

Moreover, you have yourself talked about how many people you see making less than $100/month and whole villages making less than $1000/year. So how does that support your claim that 1% are making 350K? An alternative interpretation of your observations is that your clientele and climbing partners are more like the top 0.1 or 0.01%.

It's easy to get blinded by what we regard as normal. If I only based the numbers on the people I see on a regular basis, I would guess that a typical HH income in the US is somewhere on the order of $100K, because I live in an expensive city and hang out predominantly with professionals in their early 30s. I know this isn't the case, however, because other people have actually collected data on this, and found that median HH income is about half that level.

That's because the data use is just income for a job based on tax returns. So, Again, I still believe that the top 1% of America os earning substantially more.

To know exactly how much more, you would have to look at job income, investments and other capital gains, and residuals.

Most of the top 1% are their because of the various businesses they own and they tend to keep the salaries to themselves low, but the profit of those companies are still part of their earnings in my book. A business is a great tax shelter. The top earners also use the laws to create holding companies to help lower personal income and tax liability.

People here keep saying the top needs to may more taxes, but the same data that identifies the top 1% as 350,000 or more year says that the top 1% pay approximately 40% of America's federal taxes. Hardly seems like they should be paying more in my book.

So, based on Salary and work bonus alone, I can believe 350,000, but the true top 1% are earning much much more.

I knew one guy while living on the Kentucky Tennessee border who owned a chain of strip clubs outside a few military bases. As the CEO he paid himself a salary of 1500 (one thousand five hundred) dollars month. All aspects of his life were paid for via various business and holding companies with expense accounts.

Every year he qualified for an earned income credit, he definitely had are venue of more than 1/2 million a year, he just knew how to use the system to lower his income in the eyes of the taxman.

Salary alone at 350,000 I can believe that, but personal revenue for the rich is much more complicated that their paychecks.

As for being blinded by what we personally experience, I agree with you. Works in both directions.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Dec 3, 2011, 8:55 PM)


petsfed


Dec 4, 2011, 3:50 PM
Post #23 of 90 (2568 views)
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Re: [guangzhou] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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So you're saying that the real defining characteristic of a 1%-er is making enough to utilize legal tax evasion that the rest can't?

Ok.

By the way, there are essentially two major poles in taxation philosophy: one says that it should be fair in the sense that everybody pays a similar proportion of their extra money. That is, if you're making very little, then what's left over after cost of living is not gonna be much. However, if you're making a lot, you should have a lot more, both in total and in terms of percentage of total, after cost of living. The other pole says that it should be fair in that tax burden, the percent of the government's revenue per fraction of the population, should be evenly distributed. Of course, if the 1% only paid 1% of the taxes, their effective tax rate, even before all the loop holes, would be well below what people below the poverty line pay. Meanwhile, the bottom 12% (chosen to make the math easier, its even worse if you break it down to the bottom 2%) would be expected to pay more their average annual income, in taxes. Clearly an extreme case, but you see my point. The end goal is to collect a set percentage of the GDP in either case, and I think that the first pole is a lot more fair than the second.


guangzhou


Dec 4, 2011, 4:37 PM
Post #24 of 90 (2562 views)
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Re: [petsfed] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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petsfed wrote:
So you're saying that the real defining characteristic of a 1%-er is making enough to utilize legal tax evasion that the rest can't?

Ok.

By the way, there are essentially two major poles in taxation philosophy: one says that it should be fair in the sense that everybody pays a similar proportion of their extra money. That is, if you're making very little, then what's left over after cost of living is not gonna be much. However, if you're making a lot, you should have a lot more, both in total and in terms of percentage of total, after cost of living. The other pole says that it should be fair in that tax burden, the percent of the government's revenue per fraction of the population, should be evenly distributed. Of course, if the 1% only paid 1% of the taxes, their effective tax rate, even before all the loop holes, would be well below what people below the poverty line pay. Meanwhile, the bottom 12% (chosen to make the math easier, its even worse if you break it down to the bottom 2%) would be expected to pay more their average annual income, in taxes. Clearly an extreme case, but you see my point. The end goal is to collect a set percentage of the GDP in either case, and I think that the first pole is a lot more fair than the second.

A lot more fair to the people at the bottom, not the people at the top. Personally, I don't believe someone should be penalized for being successful at making money.

I ddn't say anything the top 1% using tax evasion other can't. Any here can use the same legal tax code to save money, it's just that most people here don't want to use the time to look for ways to save on taxes, they take their tax return to HNR Block and file for early returns.

It's very easy to create a small business or corporation in the United States. Most people just rather use their time doing something else, like complaining about those who do.


ubu


Dec 4, 2011, 4:45 PM
Post #25 of 90 (2558 views)
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Registered: Dec 17, 2008
Posts: 1476

Re: [guangzhou] what is a 1%er [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
petsfed wrote:
So you're saying that the real defining characteristic of a 1%-er is making enough to utilize legal tax evasion that the rest can't?

Ok.

By the way, there are essentially two major poles in taxation philosophy: one says that it should be fair in the sense that everybody pays a similar proportion of their extra money. That is, if you're making very little, then what's left over after cost of living is not gonna be much. However, if you're making a lot, you should have a lot more, both in total and in terms of percentage of total, after cost of living. The other pole says that it should be fair in that tax burden, the percent of the government's revenue per fraction of the population, should be evenly distributed. Of course, if the 1% only paid 1% of the taxes, their effective tax rate, even before all the loop holes, would be well below what people below the poverty line pay. Meanwhile, the bottom 12% (chosen to make the math easier, its even worse if you break it down to the bottom 2%) would be expected to pay more their average annual income, in taxes. Clearly an extreme case, but you see my point. The end goal is to collect a set percentage of the GDP in either case, and I think that the first pole is a lot more fair than the second.

A lot more fair to the people at the bottom, not the people at the top. Personally, I don't believe someone should be penalized for being successful at making money.

I ddn't say anything the top 1% using tax evasion other can't. Any here can use the same legal tax code to save money, it's just that most people here don't want to use the time to look for ways to save on taxes, they take their tax return to HNR Block and file for early returns.

It's very easy to create a small business or corporation in the United States. Most people just rather use their time doing something else, like complaining about those who do.

You say that as if there is some intrinsic value to starting a corporation, even if its sole purpose is tax evasion.

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