Forums: Climbing Information: Gear Heads:
Falling indoors
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Gear Heads

Premier Sponsor:

 


davidsiegel


Dec 19, 2011, 7:07 AM
Post #1 of 14 (1866 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 2011
Posts: 5

Falling indoors
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi everyone,

I'm setting up a new private wall (not my first). I have Louie Anderson's book on routesetting, which I enjoy and recommend, but I have a question for people here.

Louie says "hangers installed into t-nuts should not be considered strong enough to support the weight of a fall, should one occur."

I'm quite sure that at most gyms the lead line consists of single hangers going up the wall, and leaders clip one quickdraw into each hanger as they go. I've never seen anything other than this. I've seen some good size guys take some whippers from single-bolted hangers, but was it unsafe?

So - is it okay to fall on a quickdraw hanging from a single hanger fixed to a gym wall? If it is, why did Louie write that in bold type in his book? If not, are most gyms unsafe for leading?

David


ianmeister89


Dec 19, 2011, 7:17 AM
Post #2 of 14 (1859 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 18, 2009
Posts: 140

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post

davidsiegel wrote:
Louie says "hangers installed into t-nuts should not be considered strong enough to support the weight of a fall, should one occur."


He is right. The bolts you see on lead walls in gyms are NOT fastened to the T nuts. They are usually directly bolted to the steel frame of the wall, or some other comparable full strength anchor. If it is at all unclear to you how this would be manufactured, you should definitely stray from doing this until you can get some proper instruction.

-Ian


davidsiegel


Dec 19, 2011, 7:24 AM
Post #3 of 14 (1850 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 2011
Posts: 5

Re: [ianmeister89] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ah, I see, that makes sense. Our wall has been set up with some lines of single hangers but one line of double hangers. I assume these are T-nutted. Not that anyone is going to lead that line, but what's the protocol for protecting a lead climb if there are two hangers at each point?

Thanks!


shockabuku


Dec 19, 2011, 8:13 AM
Post #4 of 14 (1812 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4867

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

davidsiegel wrote:
Ah, I see, that makes sense. Our wall has been set up with some lines of single hangers but one line of double hangers. I assume these are T-nutted. Not that anyone is going to lead that line, but what's the protocol for protecting a lead climb if there are two hangers at each point?

Thanks!

What's a double hanger?

A t-nut isn't very strong and neither is the typical plywood that it's fastened to. The hangers that people use to protect lead falls need to be fastened to something pretty stout (i.e. the metal frame that another poster mentioned) so that they don't rip out of the wall.


davidsiegel


Dec 19, 2011, 8:18 AM
Post #5 of 14 (1809 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 2011
Posts: 5

Re: [shockabuku] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the company that set up the wall put up 4 lead routes. three use single hangers, and it will be easy enough for me to go behind to see if they are bolted to the frame properly. they also set up a line with two hangers near each other where you would normally have one, all the way up. so i guess you could clip two quickdraws in each place or put in some kind of triangle and clip to that. have you ever seen that before?

thanks!


lena_chita
Moderator

Dec 19, 2011, 8:26 AM
Post #6 of 14 (1806 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5861

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Can't you go behind the wall in your current gym and see whether the hangers are attached to a simple T-nut, or not?

Most gyms have some way of getting behind the walls, in case they need to fix stripped T-nuts.


Our gym does have hangers on T-nut bolts on some walls... But they are only supposed to be used to teach people to mock lead climb, with a top-rope backup. I actually have taken a biggish mock lead fall on those, and they did hold, with full weight being caught on them.

BUT...


Having seen someone rip the whole chunk of plywood with the T-nut, bolt and the hold attached to it (indoor gym, bouldering), I would go with HECK NO, a hanger installed on a T-nut on plywood is not strong enough for a lead fall. Even though it is likely to hold a small fall of a relatively small person, I sure as hell won't be testing to see how big a fall, and how big a person would it take to exceed the threshold.


shockabuku


Dec 19, 2011, 9:32 AM
Post #7 of 14 (1768 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4867

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

davidsiegel wrote:
the company that set up the wall put up 4 lead routes. three use single hangers, and it will be easy enough for me to go behind to see if they are bolted to the frame properly. they also set up a line with two hangers near each other where you would normally have one, all the way up. so i guess you could clip two quickdraws in each place or put in some kind of triangle and clip to that. have you ever seen that before?

thanks!

No, I haven't seen that before. Maybe it's for practicing belay change-over at a two piece anchor.


JimTitt


Dec 19, 2011, 10:24 AM
Post #8 of 14 (1733 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 986

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Common on the walls I supply to in Europe is a 100mm square (4" for you) 12mm (1/2") plate drilled and tapped for the hanger bolt and with a couple of fixing screws from behind into the ply. _Thatīs with 18mm marine ply which is the norm, weaker ply then go for a bigger plate.
Belays/lower-offs are normally fixed into the structure in some way as well.


Partner j_ung


Dec 19, 2011, 10:41 AM
Post #9 of 14 (1725 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18689

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

davidsiegel wrote:
Hi everyone,

I'm setting up a new private wall (not my first). I have Louie Anderson's book on routesetting, which I enjoy and recommend, but I have a question for people here.

Louie says "hangers installed into t-nuts should not be considered strong enough to support the weight of a fall, should one occur."

I'm quite sure that at most gyms the lead line consists of single hangers going up the wall, and leaders clip one quickdraw into each hanger as they go. I've never seen anything other than this. I've seen some good size guys take some whippers from single-bolted hangers, but was it unsafe?

So - is it okay to fall on a quickdraw hanging from a single hanger fixed to a gym wall? If it is, why did Louie write that in bold type in his book? If not, are most gyms unsafe for leading?

David

So, this begs the question... those other walls you've set up... how did you install the protection bolts?


davidsiegel


Dec 19, 2011, 10:51 AM
Post #10 of 14 (1714 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 2011
Posts: 5

Re: [j_ung] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i've only set up one wall before, and it was in my loft in san francisco. it was toprope only.

i'm curious to learn what's going on with the 2 bolt thing. i hope to get the key to go behind the wall soon and see how it's set up.

does anyone endorse the 4" steel plate idea behind hangers? i'm not really planning on it - i like the idea of bolting into the frame better - but i'm curious what people think of the plate idea.


shockabuku


Dec 19, 2011, 11:53 AM
Post #11 of 14 (1689 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4867

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

davidsiegel wrote:
i've only set up one wall before, and it was in my loft in san francisco. it was toprope only.

i'm curious to learn what's going on with the 2 bolt thing. i hope to get the key to go behind the wall soon and see how it's set up.

does anyone endorse the 4" steel plate idea behind hangers? i'm not really planning on it - i like the idea of bolting into the frame better - but i'm curious what people think of the plate idea.

I was told that a gym I climbed in for a while had something similar to that. I think it was plates drilled through with maybe a washer or two and a nut but, I never got behind the wall there to see it myself.


JAB


Dec 19, 2011, 11:21 PM
Post #12 of 14 (1588 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 373

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

davidsiegel wrote:
the company that set up the wall put up 4 lead routes. three use single hangers, and it will be easy enough for me to go behind to see if they are bolted to the frame properly. they also set up a line with two hangers near each other where you would normally have one, all the way up. so i guess you could clip two quickdraws in each place or put in some kind of triangle and clip to that. have you ever seen that before?

thanks!

Maybe it's two independent lines, just quite close to each other?


wrbill


Dec 20, 2011, 3:12 AM
Post #13 of 14 (1561 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 5, 2002
Posts: 227

Re: [davidsiegel] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I will try to tell you what I have seen done. If your wall was put up using wood framing then here is one way to make your lead hangers safe.

First off did you use 2 X 4's or 2 X 6's from your frame.

Find the spot of the wall where you are going to put your hanger. Cut two 2X? to fit between the frame of the wall. Now cut one piece of plywood the size of the 2X?, but make the plywood about 3/4" shorter and cut in half. Now put the plywood between the two 2X? with a gap in the middle. Nail or screw the 2x?'s and the plywood together. Mount that in the frame where you want your hanger.

Now get a 1/4" X 4" X 4" piece of steel and drill a hole for you bolt and four small holes near the courners to mount the steel to the 2X? mounting. If you want you can weld a nut on the steel for the bolt or put the nut on when installing the hanger. The thing is you will want to use two nuts to keep them from coming loose.

This is what was done on a wall that I helped build. I will try a post a diagram to show you.


davidsiegel


Dec 20, 2011, 4:52 AM
Post #14 of 14 (1531 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 19, 2011
Posts: 5

Re: [wrbill] Falling indoors [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

thanks. i understand. i believe it has a steel frame. attaching to the frame properly shouldn't be difficult. i am just trying to figure out why they put a line of hangers going up where there are two hangers at each point, separated by about five inches. i'll try to post a photo some time.

thanks for all the help everyone!


Forums : Climbing Information : Gear Heads

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook