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CurlyFries
Dec 30, 2011, 5:57 PM
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Hey all,
I have been climbing for a couple years, mostly indoors. When I climb outdoors I always sling trees and make bombproof anchors. I have done a lot of training to do with white water rescue. Setting up anchors with webbing is not new to me and would feel comfortable hanging an elephant from them.
I have never taken a climbing course though. My anchors always consist of 2 or 3 strands of webbing tied together as a master point with opposed locking biners. I have done a bunch of reading on 'real' climbing anchors and have practised setting them up with a sliding X or sling equalettes, but every time I end up going way overkill and it ends up being a mess (a strong mess!).
Would it be worth taking a course? Where could I even take a course in Ontario? The only kind of 'course' I can find is guided days at rattlesnake point....
Thanks!
Dave
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Kartessa
Dec 30, 2011, 6:23 PM
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Where in Ontario are you?
If you're in the GTA and are unable/unwilling to travel, then you're stuck with Rattlesnake. There are some outfits that run courses at Metcalfe or up by Ottawa way.
The thing is because of insurance issues, liability fears and landowner preferences, a lot of crags don't permit group instruction. If you know anyone with experience who's willing to take you out, you'll be able to start out at another cliff and most likely save a lot of money too.
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CurlyFries
Dec 30, 2011, 6:39 PM
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I am in Guelph
I am fine with going to rattlesnake, it just seems like all I can find are guided days of climbing, not courses. Maybe I just suck at looking?
Also, with the ban of slinging cedars in the area, would any courses there even deal with natural protection? I don't need to take a course to learn how to set up an anchor on two bolts...
Dave
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Kartessa
Dec 30, 2011, 6:44 PM
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Most courses will teach how to use trees, rocks and sometimes traditional pro to make TR anchors.
Check out:
Escarpment Outdoor Adventures
On The Rocks
Equinox Adventures
One Axe Putsuits
Check their websites And/or call them and ask what kinds or courses they offer and what topics are covered.
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Rocquestar
Dec 31, 2011, 4:04 AM
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Have you considered joining a group like the ACC?
They will not give you any formal instruction, but it will give you the opportunity to join a vast group of climbers with varying degrees of experience, many of whom are happy to share their knowledge. Kinda like RC.com, but in person, (and without the 'yer gonna die!')
For reasons Kartessa stated, they will not offer a course, and they will not give you hands-on 'instruction' at the crag, but you will find someone who will give you hands-on experience, say, cleaning well-placed pro, which is a great way to learn which questions to ask to learn what makes well-placed pro.
If you're not into the club scene, (assuming you climb at the Grotto) see if you can find out who there climbs trad, and see if you can join them for the same purpose.
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Kartessa
Dec 31, 2011, 4:18 AM
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Rocquestar wrote: For reasons Kartessa stated, they will not offer a course, and they will not give you hands-on 'instruction' at the crag, but you will find someone who will give you hands-on experience, say, cleaning well-placed pro, which is a great way to learn which questions to ask to learn what makes well-placed pro.
I said that the companies I listed WILL offer formal instruction if you contact them and ask about their courses rather than just guided TR days.
The ACC scene is hard to appreciate when you don't live in downtown Toronto and don't want to spend all your savings on trips into the city for indoor climbing club nights. Over the course of a year, I would almost say that getting a membership at the local gym, paying for 1 or 2 outdoor courses and buying some personal gear costs about as much as ACC dues, climbing club nights and the 2-3 outdoor ventures that you can get on to where beginners are welcome.
**Evidament l'anglais n'est pas ta premiere langue, mais essaye d'eviter de faire des assomptions apropos des postes des autres.
(This post was edited by Kartessa on Dec 31, 2011, 4:18 AM)
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onceahardman
Dec 31, 2011, 7:29 PM
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I think you just need more practice. Go to a chosspile like Bottle Glass (between rattlesnake and buffalo crag) where nobody will bother you, and just spend a few hours experimenting.
If all you want to build is toprope anchors, a little overkill is not an issue, because time is less of a factor. If you want to start building multipitch anchors, then learning to streamline is a good idea.
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CurlyFries
Jan 2, 2012, 6:03 PM
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Awesome, thanks for the input everyone.
Dave
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bearbreeder
Jan 2, 2012, 10:34 PM
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i know you asked about courses in ontario ...
but should you have the opportunity, quite a few people from back east or from overseas come to squamish and take courses here on a climbing trip
squamish rock guides is priced quite reasonably, and you may have the opportunity to be taught by such climbers such as sonnie trotter and will stanhope who are among canada's best
many people also come here in july during the mountain festival and take the courses at discount rates
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Kartessa
Jan 3, 2012, 2:42 AM
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On and since it's frikkin cold and you're in Guelph, check out Grand River Rocks climbing gym. They offer a transition course :)
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John5
Jan 3, 2012, 4:27 AM
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Kartessa wrote: Most courses will teach how to use trees, rocks and sometimes traditional pro to make TR anchors. Check out: Escarpment Outdoor Adventures On The Rocks Equinox Adventures One Axe Putsuits Check their websites And/or call them and ask what kinds or courses they offer and what topics are covered.
I'll vouch for these guys. I took a TR anchors course with them a few years ago, and you'll learn tons on a very low client->guide ratio.
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stoneguy
Jan 6, 2012, 1:36 AM
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If you are good on slings, you should pick it up fast. Just get out. You might also search "ACR" Alpine Cock Ring, and yes I know it sounds like a pervert, but it's a cool three point equilization rig. I think it beats the "X" and catches all angles.
And if it's a sunny day, you can do Rattlesnake in 3 degrees, it's not so bad.
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bearbreeder
Jan 6, 2012, 7:58 AM
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for beginners ... stay away from fancy anchors ...
if i had a dollar for every time ive hear a new climber try to tell people how much "safer" his fancy setup is over the tried, true and tested setups which are taught and used by certified guides and other professionals
id have a few more camalots
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binrat
Jan 6, 2012, 1:49 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: for beginners ... stay away from fancy anchors ... if i had a dollar for every time ive hear a new climber try to tell people how much "safer" his fancy setup is over the tried, true and tested setups which are taught and used by certified guides and other professionals id have a few more camalots
(This post was edited by binrat on Jan 6, 2012, 5:36 PM)
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stoneguy
Jan 6, 2012, 3:12 PM
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I was thinking the reverse. To me it looks really simple compared with other stuff on these posts that just gets confusing. We are continuing to safely test it out, but so far I like it a lot.
Admittedly it might not be beginner stuff, but what exactly do you not like.? Weakest point is the knot or the rope. If one nut blows you only drop about 6" equalized. This also is not "my" setup any more than DMM are "my" nuts. We also ran it by some guys at MEC who loved it. So what is the weakness.?
And I'm not being an asshole. I really want to be safe.
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Kartessa
Jan 6, 2012, 5:18 PM
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This is a beginners thread... Yes there are different ways to do Pretty much anything, but n00b telling n00b how to "make it better" is a terrible idea.
Widely accepted standards are widely accepted for a reason. Stick to the basics and learn the fancy shit later.
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binrat
Jan 6, 2012, 5:39 PM
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Kartessa wrote: This is a beginners thread... Yes there are different ways to do Pretty much anything, but n00b telling n00b how to "make it better" is a terrible idea. Widely accepted standards are widely accepted for a reason. Stick to the basics and learn the fancy shit later.
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bearbreeder
Jan 6, 2012, 8:43 PM
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stoneguy wrote: I was thinking the reverse. To me it looks really simple compared with other stuff on these posts that just gets confusing. We are continuing to safely test it out, but so far I like it a lot. Admittedly it might not be beginner stuff, but what exactly do you not like.? Weakest point is the knot or the rope. If one nut blows you only drop about 6" equalized. This also is not "my" setup any more than DMM are "my" nuts. We also ran it by some guys at MEC who loved it. So what is the weakness.? And I'm not being an asshole. I really want to be safe.
safety does not lie in fancy anchors ... it lies in KISS ... and knowing what to use and when to use it ...
i have had people tell me how great and "safe" their new anchors are, or how you should always use lockers, or how a PAS will kill you ...
and lo and behold, next thing i know they arent belaying or rapping or climbing very safely at all ... worry about how you will screw up leading, belaying, rapping .. thats what will kill you more than any need for a fancy anchor
the biggest inditement for all these fancy anchors for beginner purposes ... is that you almost never see any guides use em with their clients ... they stick to simple tried and true methods ... and they are the ones with liability for their clients ... unlike some "experts" outdoors who seem to be fairly "unsafe" with new climbers IMO
if you need a fancy anchor for a TR, or sport setup ... just walk away ... the anchors likely arent safe if you REALLY need it ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jan 6, 2012, 8:45 PM)
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stoneguy
Jan 7, 2012, 1:27 AM
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My apologies, and others are totally correct that my comments should not have been on a beginner thread. Yes, I completely agree that simple tried and true basics are always best. The ACR is mostly a TRAD thing anyways. Good luck with your climbing , have fun and be safe.
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Kartessa
Jan 7, 2012, 1:56 AM
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stoneguy wrote: My apologies, and others are totally correct that my comments should not have been on a beginner thread. Yes, I completely agree that simple tried and true basics are always best. The ACR is mostly a TRAD thing anyways. Good luck with your climbing , have fun and be safe.
You mean "the TRAD"?
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