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sandeld
Jan 11, 2012, 5:33 PM
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Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.
Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.
Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?
What's your story?
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j_ung
Jan 11, 2012, 6:08 PM
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I didn't really begin to learn this stuff until well into my climbing life in the mid-90s, when I starting working at Sportrock in Alexandria, VA. Working under guys like Doug Cosby and Dan Hague and employing instructional programs based on Goddard and Neumann's work and later Douglas Hunter's, I started to really think about climbing movement pretty much constantly when at work. I also spent a shit ton of time watching better climbers and evaluating what they were doing. Bringing video into the mix helped immensely, as well, because for the first time, I could compare what I was doing to what they were doing.
I guess I was lucky. Not only did I have ample opportunity to study movement from masters, I was getting paid to do it as part of my job. In fact, the real epiphanies always hit while I was teaching movement classes. Having to communicate my theories (which were really just conglomerations of others' theories) to students became the cement that bound it all together for me. Most people won't ever have access to that, nor to 5-digit-square-foot climbing gyms and endless time to set problems, ponder techniques, rinse and repeat.
I have no freaking idea how other people learn this stuff. I certainly felt inadequate as a teacher most of the time—like the subject was so immense that it was impossible to convey any single aspect of it in a handful of 2-hour clinics.
I dunno. Maybe that means I never really learned any of it.
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Gmburns2000
Jan 11, 2012, 6:25 PM
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sandeld wrote: Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible. Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction. Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh? What's your story?
Honestly, I first learned technique when I was too tired to haul myself up a route. I climbed like a n00b until my arms and legs were too tired to climb like a n00b. Learning how to be efficient and technical was almost a mistake. I practically fell into it.
Also, a good friend of mine once taught me how to climb "smooth" and "static" with "quiet feet" by playing specific games that forced one to climb a certain way.
Finally route setting (yes, honest) helped me a lot, too, because it helped me to read routes better, and that helped me to think of different techniques and ways of moving.
I still suck, but I'm much better at sucking than I used to be.
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lena_chita
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Jan 11, 2012, 6:36 PM
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I took a 2-day technique class at out gym sometime within the first year of climbing. I learned a LOT from it, and it was also helpful that the person who taught the technique class was also often around when I got stuck on specific routes/moves, and he was willing to offer advice and suggest small corrections/adjustments that usually worked.
I read the SCC book at some point during my second year of climbing, and realized that a lot of things in the technique class I took were about similar ideas and concepts. I found the book to be very helpful for me, because it went into more details and background that was not covered in the technique class.
I think that having background in dance/gymnasitcs helped me a fair bit, maybe because with that background you have a pretty good feeling for balance, weight transfer, and movement in general. So a lot of things I sort of picked up right away, without anyone teaching me, and then later in technique class, and reading the book, I realized that oh, when they are talking about movement initiation and balance transfer, it totally makes sense and explains the things that I picked up experimentally.
Other than that-- yes, of course, watching better climbers, and a lot of trial and error.
And the process is still ongoing, of course!
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shimanilami
Jan 11, 2012, 7:08 PM
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I learned it on the internet, right here on RC.com.
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2012, 7:18 PM
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I learned by doing things I couldn't do until I could.
Occasionally I get helpful beta on a particular route from other folks, but.... I don't think I've ever learned a technique or a way to move my body from anything aside from the way my body moves on the rock.
GO
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Diddii
Jan 11, 2012, 8:09 PM
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i've been climbing for 5months now, only indoor bouldering. current level is about v5. done about 70 problems, i keep track of every problem that i do and write down to keep track of progress.
I got a little help from people to start with how to use diffrent movements. Learnd alot by watching others and also by climbing with more experienced climbers.
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jt512
Jan 11, 2012, 8:54 PM
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sandeld wrote: Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible. Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction. Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh? What's your story?
The Self-Coached Climber
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sandeld
Jan 11, 2012, 9:05 PM
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Lucky you!
I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.
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surfstar
Jan 11, 2012, 9:18 PM
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sandeld wrote: Lucky you! I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.
Most of my reading is done during movements.
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caughtinside
Jan 11, 2012, 10:01 PM
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sandeld wrote: Lucky you! I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.
That book comes with a helpful dvd.
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jt512
Jan 11, 2012, 10:06 PM
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sandeld wrote: Lucky you! I'd have a very hard time learning movement just by reading it.
So would I. That's why you study the DVD that comes with the book.
Jay
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sandeld
Jan 11, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?
Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.
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jt512
Jan 11, 2012, 10:17 PM
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sandeld wrote: Wouldn't that be similar to watching any other climbing DVD?
Nope.
In reply to: Of course, SCC is solely training based whereas the others aren't, but that's where mimicking comes into play.
Mimicking doesn't work, except to correct gross errors in movement.
If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber.
Jay
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sandeld
Jan 11, 2012, 10:20 PM
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I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well.
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jt512
Jan 11, 2012, 10:58 PM
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sandeld wrote: I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well.
Here's an idea. Tell us the the answer you're looking for. We'll tell you you're right. Then you can go and implement whatever preconceived notion you had about learning to climb with the validation that you were seeking.
Jay
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sandeld
Jan 11, 2012, 11:13 PM
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I merely asked *what* methods other people used. You were the one that started offering *how* people should. And since you opened that door, I'm responding. I never once asked for help...if you can read.
This isn't a right vs. wrong question, but I've found that you make a lot of your posts on here about that. And then as soon someone questions your response, you immediately attack them by saying, "oh yeah, well, I'm a better climber than you so just stfu and listen to me!"
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jt512
Jan 11, 2012, 11:25 PM
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sandeld wrote: I merely asked *what* methods other people used. You were the one that started offering *how* people should. And since you opened that door, I'm responding. I never once asked for help...if you can read. This isn't a right vs. wrong question, but I've found that you make a lot of your posts on here about that. And then as soon someone questions your response, you immediately attack them by saying, "oh yeah, well, I'm a better climber than you so just stfu and listen to me!"
Bullshit.
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cracklover
Jan 11, 2012, 11:29 PM
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jt512 wrote: If you really want to learn to climb well, you've got two choices: a personal climbing coach or The Self-Coached Climber. Jay
I don't buy that.
GO
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sandeld
Jan 11, 2012, 11:45 PM
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Sure.
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shockabuku
Jan 12, 2012, 3:29 AM
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sandeld wrote: Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?
I don't know, it depends on how good you are.
I've learned mostly from doing, some from reading, some from watching and or talking with other people. I have a hard time picking up the subtleties of movement just from watching. It's funny that I'm gaining experience at learning from watching other people as well as gaining experience at actually climbing from watching other people.
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JoeNYC
Jan 12, 2012, 5:46 AM
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jt512 wrote: sandeld wrote: I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well. Here's an idea. Tell us the the answer you're looking for. We'll tell you you're right. Then you can go and implement whatever preconceived notion you had about learning to climb with the validation that you were seeking. Jay
Your "idea" sounds exactly like what you already did. Of course, instead of having your own answer you just stroked Douglas Hunter's...(cough) ego.
Also, I have no idea what you are saying. The grammar is all off, and as a result, its difficult to tell what you even mean. What is the verb "implement" doing in that last sentence (never mind, its also a fragment)? jeez
Do you care to explain what you mean without trying to sound like you just invested all your money into some SSC factory? If I understand you correctly, here is why I think you are mistaken:
I think the video in the SSC is piss even with the text, and most of the people who tell me to read that silly book are still clueless when it comes to doing anything remotely technical because climbing is not a game of right or wrong answers. Its about doing what works for you, ask Dave Graham or Matt Wilder. The engrams you need to develop to climb harder don't pattern themselves from what you read or what your coach tells you during your lesson. You've invented a false dichotomy, there are clearly more than two ways to get better at climbing and you have suspiciously left out the only one that actually builds technique.
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JoeNYC
Jan 12, 2012, 5:55 AM
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Shit! I might have figured it out!
The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with because YOU act like professor rock climbing all day.
I take back my original comment.
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jt512
Jan 12, 2012, 6:25 AM
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JoeNYC wrote: jt512 wrote: sandeld wrote: I think that's an overstatement. It depends largely on the individual and *your* definition of climbing well. Here's an idea. Tell us the the answer you're looking for. We'll tell you you're right. Then you can go and implement whatever preconceived notion you had about learning to climb with the validation that you were seeking. Jay I have no idea what you are saying. The grammar is all off, and as a result, its difficult to tell what you even mean. What is the verb "implement" doing in that last sentence (never mind, its also a fragment)? jeez I think the video in the SSC is piss even with the text, and most of the people who tell me to read that silly book are still clueless when it comes to doing anything remotely technical because climbing is not a game of right or wrong answers. Its about doing what works for you , ask Dave Graham or Matt Wilder. The engrams you need to develop to climb harder don't pattern themselves from what you read or what your coach tells you during your lesson. You've invented a false dichotomy , there are clearly more than two ways to get better at climbing and you have suspiciously left out the only one that actually builds technique.
While I am open to suggestions on how to improve my grammar, I question how helpful suggestions would be from a compulsive comma splicer who doesn't know what an apostrophe is for.
Then you accuse of me falsely narrowing the number of ways to learn to climb well down to two (which you incorrectly term a "false dichotomy," only to narrow them down to one (which you "suspiciously" leave unspecified), yourself. How strange.
Jay
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jt512
Jan 12, 2012, 7:13 AM
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JoeNYC wrote: The only reason you can only suggest those two ways was because YOU have no friends to climb and share beta with . . .
So you think that climbing with friends and sharing beta is as effective a way to learn to climb well as working with a coach, or, in the absence of a coach, using a book and DVD authored by two professional coaches. Let's see how your opinion about learning to climb well compares with how people learn to perform well in other sports, and, for that matter, human endeavors other than sports.
To become good at football, which is more effective: to play football with your friends or to join your high-school team and be professionally coached?
To excel at figure skating, which avenue would you pursue: go skating with your friends or take figure skating lessons from a professional?
To learn gymnastics: friends or coach?
What do people who want to become mathematicians do: study math on their own, or enroll in mathematics programs in college, where they receive formal training from professional mathematicians, and then go on to graduate programs, where they are personally mentored by an expert in their field?
Swimming: How many olympic swimmers got to the Olympics via swimming with their friends versus being coached by professional swimming coahces?
Why is climbing any different?
Jay
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