I think you have to be realistic.

The article that JoeNYC quoted (very interesting read, btw!) takes the definition of a "coach" rather liberally. For example, Perlman's "coach" in the story is not an actual qualified and certified coach. It is his wife, who has musical training, sure, but not any coaching qualifications, per se.

This is not really any different that climbing with friends who happen to be good climbers with a good eye towards movement, and who are willing to offer you comments and suggestions for improvement.


I think there is evolution happening in climbing. Pretty much every young up-and-coming elite climber that you hear about these days has started the same way: discovered climbing at a relatively young age sort-of accidently, loved it, started going to the climbing gym, joined the climbing team, was coached, attended the comp circuit, etc. etc.

But if you look back several decades ago, the story would be very different. The story would be along the lines of "we didn't know what the heck we were doing, we just went out and we climbed and somehow managed to live through every stupid thing we tried, and learned in the process."

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

That wasn't advice.

How long until you realize that what people have been saying IS their personal experience?

He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."

He wasn't? Welp, I'm confused.

"However, the OP, to whom I was responding, lives in Minnesota. He should get a coach or buy the book.. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book."

Yes, it does depend on who your friends are....He should get a coach or buy the book. And since there probably aren't any qualified coaches in Minnesota, he should probably just buy the book.

Jay

Climbing is still very young sport. Outside of youth climbing team circuit, finding an actual REAL coach would be nearly impossible for an average guy who starts climbing as an adult, and unaffordable for a lot of people who can find one. So by necessity most climbers have to rely on their friends for most of their learning.

And yes, books are a good resource, and SCC instructional DVD is very helpful, but that still doesn't address the fact that once you are out on the actual climb trying to apply that flagging, or backstep, or whatever, the observer offering you advice along the lines of "try to get your left foot higher before you start rocking over" or "it looks like you are stopping yourself halfway through the move and losing momentum" is going to be invaluable.

I dunno, I keep scratching my head over this thread. It is as if most of you never learned how to listen to your own body. You need a coach, or a book, or a buddy to tell you what you're doing wrong.

I'm reminded of how when I was a total n00b climbing with other n00bs, everyone around me wanted beta to figure out how to do a climb, and I wanted to figure it out for myself. Not because I was stubborn (although that may be) but because I was learning skills that I did not want to short-circuit; the skills around listening to the interplay between body and rock, and learning how to adjust to find the balance required in the moment.

Every skill except climbing. Climbin' with da brahs is jus' as good. Know why? Cuz da brahs got mad pedagogical skillz.

Jay

So far, no need for a coach.

And again, wasn't asking for advice, just other's experiences. Not sure how many more times I'll have to say that.

I'm well past 10a's now and have been climbing less than a year, but no matter how I try to justify it here, I'm sure your almighty climbing authority will find some way to discredit it. So, sure, I'll just agree with you so you can feed your ego by "beating another noob on an Internet forum".

Of course you need to figure out how the moves "feel" and learn a lot of things on your own, including how to trouble-shoot and change when the things you are doing aren't working.

BUT... Coaching is effective precisely BECAUSE your own "feedpack" from body to brain is not necessarily perfect or accurate when learning new skills that your body has no framework of reference for.

Speaking from personal experience, you just don't necessarily "feel" that one shoulder is slightly higher, and the back is arched a bit too much when you are in the middle of learning a complex movement skill. Your mind is trying to keep track of so many things at once, and it is very hard to analyze all components of that complex move when you are in the middle of it. You just feel that something was "off", and as a result of it you failed, but not quite sure why, or what to change next time. But if someone points out to you that there is a specific thing that you need to pay attention to, next time you are more likely consciously focus on that, and try to change that specific thing.

Far from giving you a micro-beta, a good coach would let you figure out a lot of things on your own, IMO, and step in only when you have tried a few things. But even then, he would point things out, and then it is up to you to figure out how to physicly move your body in that way, and how that move feels like. So the coach in no way implies that you can turn off your brain and not pay attention to your balance, and how the right move feels, etc. etc. You are still storing information on how the move felt when it was "wrong", and how the move felt when it was "right", and building a "library" of moves in your brain that would form the basis of further improvement.

I don't think there is an argument that you CAN, and many climbers DO, figure these things out on their own. But the process is more efficient with a coach. And that is how I took the meaning of jt512's post.

Just interested in other people's experiences. I don't think one way is better than another as long as it works for you in reaching your goals in the most timely way possible.

Some people can learn by reading. Others just need to watch others. Most people probably need a mix of visual plus explanation. And of course, there's the less athletically inclined that need one-on-one, hands-on instruction.

Personally, I've always been very good at mimicking. I've been climbing less than a year and I have gotten very very little instruction. Mostly all of my movement/technique has been learned by watching dvd's and other climbers in the gym. Lucky me, eh?

What's your story?

I did gymnastics when I was a kid. Apples and oranges. Things happen much too fast to analyze what exactly went wrong in the middle of a routine, or even in a specific move. You absolutely *need* a coach, or a video of yourself, or something equivalent to know how to correct it. Not so in climbing.


Yes, that's part of it. And there's more than that. If you are creative and really paying attention, you can discover every single technique simply by feeling out the body position that works with the combination of holds and the position you need to move into next. Some of which you can apply next time on another route. That's the definition of learned technique.

But JT seems unwilling to admit that even your simple trial and error method (if learned from each time) allows you to build a significant body of techniques.


I've no doubt that really good coaching could accelerate one's learning curve. But it's by no means necessary.


Then I guess I've never seen a "good" climbing coach. Nor, when I played soccer, did I ever have a "good" coach.

The best climbing coaches I've seen basically give good beta - beta the climber hadn't thought of, or maybe even didn't know how to do. I guess that helps the climber learn the appropriate movement for the situation. But it's a far cry from the super-coach you describe above, who can apparently tell from 50 feet away if your back is arching 1/2 second before it should be.


Well 1 - that's not what he said, and 2 - if 90% of your learning really comes from intense personal focus on how your body and the rock are interacting, then why all the focus in this thread on external learning?

I would posit that if people paid more attention to simple things like understanding *exactly* what happened just before they fell, and understanding how to do transitions efficiency, they would learn everything a coach could teach them. Sure, it might take longer, but IMO, it would be learned more fully, since it came from your own experience.

GO

Spoken like a true trad climber. We're talking about movement quality, the essence of good climbing. You talk of "techniques," discreet units that you can list, and you think movement is so unimportant that you relegate it to "transitions," as if what really matters is getting stable in the next hand jam. You are precisely the kind of climber who would benefit the most from the Self-Coached Climber. I predict that it would completely change the way you think about climbing.

Jay

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?

Don't ever do that again.

This is why gymnasts review the video of their routines.

So, how much money does Douglas Hunter pay you?

Likewise, reading a calculus book is useless compared to actually doing calculus on your own, which is why the books are filled with problems, and why the SCC cant do the same work.

Be honest, have you even read the SCC? The book is filled with exercises and drills that you're supposed to do on your own. The book encourages climbing with others and discussing beta and the nuances of your movement. You don't get better from just reading the goddamn words on the page; you need to get on the wall and work out the concepts you've read about, and no one said you didn't.

How about a rule: you can't criticize or downplay the usefulness of the Self-Coached Climber unless you've read the book and made an effort to do the exercises and follow the program. Really, give it a try. See what all the fuss is about.