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curt


Jan 15, 2012, 5:36 PM
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Boating Fail
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Curt


blondgecko
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Jan 15, 2012, 8:37 PM
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Whoops.


chadnsc


Jan 16, 2012, 6:05 AM
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They ever find those 40 or so people believed to be trapped inside the ship below the water line?


pinktricam


Jan 16, 2012, 8:08 AM
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Have you ever seen the way Italians drive?!?


(This post was edited by pinktricam on Jan 16, 2012, 8:10 AM)


notapplicable


Jan 16, 2012, 8:38 AM
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You'd think people would have learned by now that texting while driving is dangerous. *shakes head*


scrapedape


Jan 16, 2012, 5:16 PM
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Do they know what caused it?




dan2see


Jan 23, 2012, 6:22 AM
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scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?

It certainly wasn't the ship's navigation equipment, It wans't the sonar, radar, satellite nav, or Tacan. My Honda Civic can navigate better than that, and it knows how not to skid on ice. A Ford Focus can park itself.

The captain is negligent.
The crew are incompetent.
The home-office administrators are crazy.
The owners are greedy.

Did I miss anyone?


traddad


Jan 23, 2012, 6:42 AM
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dan2see wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?

It certainly wasn't the ship's navigation equipment, It wans't the sonar, radar, satellite nav, or Tacan. My Honda Civic can navigate better than that, and it knows how not to skid on ice. A Ford Focus can park itself.

The captain is negligent.
The crew are incompetent.
The home-office administrators are crazy.
The owners are greedy.

Did I miss anyone?

I think you hit the nail on the head. The way corporate capitalism is structured, businesses often feel compelled cut corners in order to compete in the marketplace. I heard this referred to as "toumbstone engineering" in reference to the airline industry. One example given at the time was the airline's reluctance to install a system that could extinguish in-flight fires. The reason given was weight. The fire extinguisher system weighed roughly the same as the inflight entertainment system they subsequently installed. Most people don't give a rat's ass about fire extinguishers, if there's no fire. They do, howener, care who won American Idol.
I'm sure, if you were to dig deep enough, that you'd find that corners were cut somewhere in the name of money. Whether in staffing, egress systems or other things that would have made a negligent act like this survivable.


(This post was edited by traddad on Jan 23, 2012, 6:43 AM)


blondgecko
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Jan 23, 2012, 5:14 PM
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"I tripped and accidentally fell into a lifeboat" is my new favorite excuse, narrowly edging out "... and accidentally stuck my dick in your wife."



(Bruce Willis in The Last Boy Scout, for those that don't recognize the reference)


curt


Jan 23, 2012, 7:16 PM
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scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?


Not yet, but I'm fairly sure that boulder shouldn't be stuck in there like that.

Curt


guangzhou


Jan 23, 2012, 8:50 PM
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dan2see wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?

It certainly wasn't the ship's navigation equipment, It wans't the sonar, radar, satellite nav, or Tacan. My Honda Civic can navigate better than that, and it knows how not to skid on ice. A Ford Focus can park itself.

The captain is negligent.
The crew are incompetent.
The home-office administrators are crazy.
The owners are greedy.

Did I miss anyone?

Captain being negligent I can agree with 99.9999%. The rest, well, I don't have enough detail to blame all those people. I have no idea what they did and didn't do.

Crew incompetent, strong possibility for sure.
Home office, not sure about that. From all accounts I've read and seen, all system were operation, just the deck people decided to ignore them. Something they had done on previous trips too. (Captain was entertaining a "guest" with champagne in his room.

Cooperate greed, not sure how you fit that in there. This was definitely a human error, but people on this site love to blame business for everything.


dan2see


Jan 23, 2012, 9:48 PM
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guangzhou wrote:
... Cooperate greed, not sure how you fit that in there. This was definitely a human error, but people on this site love to blame business for everything.

Corporate culture starts at the top, and is controlled by the folks who own the company. Their vision of their business is what drives their mission and policies -- especially policies.

Corporate culture can be positive or pro-active, such as department goals, or infrastructure such as how the employees get educated, and how they treat each other.

Corporate culture can be restrictive, too, such as lack of recognition, or focus on law instead of people.

It sets the tone and direction for all the at-work behaviour of all employees.

In the case of the Costa accident, the crew and captain all demonstrated incompetence. This can only happen if the Corporate vision and drive allowed it, or possibly encouraged careless and reckless procedures in their daily duties. The consequences were severe and very obvious.

I say "demonstrated" because there's no way a ship like the Concordia could be sailing at random with nobody at the helm.

I also claim that the "culture" is real, and is a necessary part of the accident. It's not good enough to claim the captain is "responsible" and stick it all to him. So if the captain is responsible and should go to jail, so should all his superiors in the Costa home-office. All the way to the president of the company, and maybe the CEO, too!

There's blame enough to go around. They all did it!


guangzhou


Jan 24, 2012, 12:13 AM
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dan2see wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
... Cooperate greed, not sure how you fit that in there. This was definitely a human error, but people on this site love to blame business for everything.

Corporate culture starts at the top, and is controlled by the folks who own the company. Their vision of their business is what drives their mission and policies -- especially policies.

Corporate culture can be positive or pro-active, such as department goals, or infrastructure such as how the employees get educated, and how they treat each other.

Corporate culture can be restrictive, too, such as lack of recognition, or focus on law instead of people.

It sets the tone and direction for all the at-work behaviour of all employees.

In the case of the Costa accident, the crew and captain all demonstrated incompetence. This can only happen if the Corporate vision and drive allowed it, or possibly encouraged careless and reckless procedures in their daily duties. The consequences were severe and very obvious.

I say "demonstrated" because there's no way a ship like the Concordia could be sailing at random with nobody at the helm.

I also claim that the "culture" is real, and is a necessary part of the accident. It's not good enough to claim the captain is "responsible" and stick it all to him. So if the captain is responsible and should go to jail, so should all his superiors in the Costa home-office. All the way to the president of the company, and maybe the CEO, too!

There's blame enough to go around. They all did it!

Seems like complacency to me. Most like bored sailor who have done the exact same trip hundreds of times with zero changes or issues.

I can see blaming the captain and even the officers aboard, they lost track of what might go wrong. of course, this was an accident, and they do happen.

How many climbers do you know who practice self rescue just in case they need it one day. I'm guessing a lot less than 10%.


Partner cracklover


Jan 24, 2012, 10:05 AM
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As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

So, the company has phony rules they don't enforce? Sounds like the company should bear some responsibility to me. And the crew is either ignorant of those rules or chooses to ignore them - sounds like they bear a chunk of the blame too.

GO


Partner j_ung


Jan 25, 2012, 11:41 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
dan2see wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?

It certainly wasn't the ship's navigation equipment, It wans't the sonar, radar, satellite nav, or Tacan. My Honda Civic can navigate better than that, and it knows how not to skid on ice. A Ford Focus can park itself.

The captain is negligent.
The crew are incompetent.
The home-office administrators are crazy.
The owners are greedy.

Did I miss anyone?

Captain being negligent I can agree with 99.9999%. The rest, well, I don't have enough detail to blame all those people. I have no idea what they did and didn't do.

Crew incompetent, strong possibility for sure.
Home office, not sure about that. From all accounts I've read and seen, all system were operation, just the deck people decided to ignore them. Something they had done on previous trips too. (Captain was entertaining a "guest" with champagne in his room.

Cooperate greed, not sure how you fit that in there. This was definitely a human error, but people on this site love to blame business for everything.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on this. I haven't been following it all that closely, but from what I have seen, I have a lot trouble ascribing any of this to some nebulous corporate greed.


Partner j_ung


Jan 25, 2012, 11:43 AM
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dan2see wrote:
In the case of the Costa accident, the crew and captain all demonstrated incompetence. This can only happen if the Corporate vision and drive allowed it, or possibly encouraged careless and reckless procedures in their daily duties.

Bullshit. There are a million and a half ways for incompetence to rear its ugly head.


Partner j_ung


Jan 25, 2012, 11:45 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Boating Fail [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

As I said, I haven't been following all that closely. Where's you read that?


Partner cracklover


Jan 25, 2012, 12:10 PM
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j_ung wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
dan2see wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?

It certainly wasn't the ship's navigation equipment, It wans't the sonar, radar, satellite nav, or Tacan. My Honda Civic can navigate better than that, and it knows how not to skid on ice. A Ford Focus can park itself.

The captain is negligent.
The crew are incompetent.
The home-office administrators are crazy.
The owners are greedy.

Did I miss anyone?

Captain being negligent I can agree with 99.9999%. The rest, well, I don't have enough detail to blame all those people. I have no idea what they did and didn't do.

Crew incompetent, strong possibility for sure.
Home office, not sure about that. From all accounts I've read and seen, all system were operation, just the deck people decided to ignore them. Something they had done on previous trips too. (Captain was entertaining a "guest" with champagne in his room.

Cooperate greed, not sure how you fit that in there. This was definitely a human error, but people on this site love to blame business for everything.

I'm going to go ahead and agree with you on this. I haven't been following it all that closely, but from what I have seen, I have a lot trouble ascribing any of this to some nebulous corporate greed.

Really? See the post just above yours. If you wink and pretend not to notice while your subordinates break your rules because it helps business, so "whatever", how is that not negligence?

GO


Partner cracklover


Jan 25, 2012, 12:12 PM
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j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

As I said, I haven't been following all that closely. Where's you read that?

I heard it on news reports. They would go close to the island and honk their horn to get crowds waving to each other. I'm sure it was entertaining for all. I mean, aside from the whole rolling over and drowning people part.

GO


Partner j_ung


Jan 25, 2012, 1:17 PM
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cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

As I said, I haven't been following all that closely. Where's you read that?

I heard it on news reports. They would go close to the island and honk their horn to get crowds waving to each other. I'm sure it was entertaining for all. I mean, aside from the whole rolling over and drowning people part.

GO

I just googled and read that, too. I'll be changing my opinion now. Blush


Partner cracklover


Jan 25, 2012, 3:51 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Boating Fail [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

As I said, I haven't been following all that closely. Where's you read that?

I heard it on news reports. They would go close to the island and honk their horn to get crowds waving to each other. I'm sure it was entertaining for all. I mean, aside from the whole rolling over and drowning people part.

GO

I just googled and read that, too. I'll be changing my opinion now. Blush

But wait, why? I mean, guangzhou must be right, and I must be wrong. It's inconceivable that any corporation might be greedy, and cut corners in the name of convenience or profit, right? I mean, businesses are always factors for good in this world, aren't they?

GTongue


guangzhou


Jan 25, 2012, 6:29 PM
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cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

As I said, I haven't been following all that closely. Where's you read that?

I heard it on news reports. They would go close to the island and honk their horn to get crowds waving to each other. I'm sure it was entertaining for all. I mean, aside from the whole rolling over and drowning people part.

GO

I just googled and read that, too. I'll be changing my opinion now. Blush

But wait, why? I mean, guangzhou must be right, and I must be wrong. It's inconceivable that any corporation might be greedy, and cut corners in the name of convenience or profit, right? I mean, businesses are always factors for good in this world, aren't they?

GTongue

It's not that businesses always do well or what they are suppose too. I just don't believe every business is bad just because they want a profit.

I don't believe starting a business to make money is greed, regardless of how big the business get or gets.

Posters on this forum love to blame things on cooperate greed.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 25, 2012, 7:20 PM)


petsfed


Jan 25, 2012, 8:00 PM
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curt wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?


Not yet, but I'm fairly sure that boulder shouldn't be stuck in there like that.

Curt

I thought that came standard, like anti-lock brakes. Shows you what I know...

As far as business owners and greed, I think the less understanding of the product or service a business owner has, the more likely they will be motivated by greed, or at least the bottom line over the quality of the service or product they delivered. I always chafed under requirements done for reasons of economy (or more accurately, expanding profit margin) that specifically contravened my ability to ensure that the customer would come back.

To my mind, getting your customers killed is a pretty good way to make sure the dead ones don't come back.


traddad


Jan 26, 2012, 5:49 AM
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petsfed wrote:
curt wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
Do they know what caused it?

[image]http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/costa011612/c08_RTR2W9J6.jpg[/image]

Not yet, but I'm fairly sure that boulder shouldn't be stuck in there like that.

Curt

I thought that came standard, like anti-lock brakes. Shows you what I know...

As far as business owners and greed, I think the less understanding of the product or service a business owner has, the more likely they will be motivated by greed, or at least the bottom line over the quality of the service or product they delivered. I always chafed under requirements done for reasons of economy (or more accurately, expanding profit margin) that specifically contravened my ability to ensure that the customer would come back.

To my mind, getting your customers killed is a pretty good way to make sure the dead ones don't come back.

There was a great segment on NPR this AM that spoke, at least marginally, to this issue. The commentor was talking about how Starbucks (I know, I know...burnt coffee) had been brought back from financial troubles and now was quite profitable. The salient point, for me, was the observation that, in order for a publicly traded company to keep stock holders happy, it had to continue to expand. The commenter suggested that Starbucks had maxed out the coffee market (how many Starbucks can you see from your window right now?) and needed to diversify into other areas. This is probably the genesis of the issue Petsy is pointing out. A LOT of major corporations are no longer in the business of actually MAKING anyting...except money. What you now have is a board that is beholding to the stockholders and only marginally associated with day-to-day running of the company and their products. When stockholders start selling because growth is stagnent, the board directs the varied companies to become more profitable...and some of the best ways to do this is by laying off workers, making products cheaper to manufacture, aportioning more of the budget to advertising (and less to manufacturing) and generally cutting corners. As I pointed out in an earlier post, this is what happened in the airline industry and led to "toumbstone engineering"; the airlines predicted more of a boost in profits from an investment for in-flight entertainment than for safety equipment.
Does anyone remember the Alaska Airlines plane that went down because the elevator trim jack screw malfunctioned? A friend of mine was the pilot/sales rep that delivered that plane to the airline. The jack screw malfunctioned because an inspection was made with the wrong tool, one that was made by the airline rather than the manufacturer. You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/..._Airlines_Flight_261
The gist is: there were deficiencies up and down the line, from regulatory understaffing to AA cutting corners.
What is the root cause to all of the above problems? Money. I am so sick and tired of the "a few bad apples" argument where workers get blamed while the corporate culture of greed that almost requires cutting corners still remains in place.

Also. Too. http://www.nytimes.com/...s-in-china.html?_r=1


(This post was edited by traddad on Jan 26, 2012, 6:24 AM)


Partner cracklover


Jan 26, 2012, 8:23 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Boating Fail [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
cracklover wrote:
As I understand it, they did a "fly-by" of this island every trip - although the company disavows it and claims that it's against their rules to go that close.

As I said, I haven't been following all that closely. Where's you read that?

I heard it on news reports. They would go close to the island and honk their horn to get crowds waving to each other. I'm sure it was entertaining for all. I mean, aside from the whole rolling over and drowning people part.

GO

I just googled and read that, too. I'll be changing my opinion now. Blush

But wait, why? I mean, guangzhou must be right, and I must be wrong. It's inconceivable that any corporation might be greedy, and cut corners in the name of convenience or profit, right? I mean, businesses are always factors for good in this world, aren't they?

GTongue

It's not that businesses always do well or what they are suppose too. I just don't believe every business is bad just because they want a profit.

I don't believe starting a business to make money is greed, regardless of how big the business get or gets.

Posters on this forum love to blame things on cooperate greed.

Redirection fail.

THIS business fucked up, and the people responsible should be held to account. YOU claimed that the people running the business should be let off the hook. Now it's up to YOU to justify that ludicrous position.

GO

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