|
macblaze
Jan 28, 2012, 10:09 AM
Post #1 of 32
(2905 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 806
|
Super paranoid? Rope too long? I'm a blind idiot? Bat-shit crazy anchor maker? None of the above?
(This post was edited by macblaze on Jan 28, 2012, 10:09 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
Jan 28, 2012, 12:50 PM
Post #2 of 32
(2861 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1362
|
Slings for top-rope set-up shortened with clove hitches and backed up with non-locking 'biners. Not the best but will prolly hold.
|
|
|
|
|
sbaclimber
Jan 28, 2012, 1:00 PM
Post #3 of 32
(2856 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2004
Posts: 3015
|
macblaze wrote: Super paranoid? Rope too long? I'm a blind idiot? Bat-shit crazy anchor maker? None of the above? 
Edit: to answer your 5 questions... yes, probably, not necessarily, very possibly , and no.
1) clove-hitching either sling isn't really necessary, and more than one down right pointless.
2) as potreroed pointed out, clipping the remaining portion of either sling back on to the same bolt with another carabiner (even if it were locking) is just a waste of a carabiner. It isn't gaining you any sort of redundancy. (btw, clipping it to the other bolt wouldn't really be of any practical advantage either...)
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Jan 28, 2012, 1:17 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
rgold
Jan 28, 2012, 3:10 PM
Post #4 of 32
(2795 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1734
|
I don't pretend to know what the rigger had in mind, but I'd guess it is not so much redundancy but rather not wanting to weight the figure-eights so much they can't be untied.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Jan 29, 2012, 7:52 AM
Post #5 of 32
(2654 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
rgold wrote: I don't pretend to know what the rigger had in mind, but I'd guess it is not so much redundancy but rather not wanting to weight the figure-eights so much they can't be untied.
Oh, I like that.
My thought was that the current configuration is shortened to make a rappel start easier, then it would be lengthened so the master point was in the right spot for the climb. Last person lengthens it and has a worse rap start, or walks off.
|
|
|
|
|
marc801
Jan 29, 2012, 8:10 AM
Post #6 of 32
(2642 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2005
Posts: 2399
|
bill413 wrote: rgold wrote: I don't pretend to know what the rigger had in mind, but I'd guess it is not so much redundancy but rather not wanting to weight the figure-eights so much they can't be untied. Oh, I like that. My thought was that the current configuration is shortened to make a rappel start easier, then it would be lengthened so the master point was in the right spot for the climb. Last person lengthens it and has a worse rap start, or walks off.
|
|
|
|
|
horseshoe
Jan 29, 2012, 10:27 AM
Post #7 of 32
(2594 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 40
|
What about the knots about five feet down each strand? They appear to be overhands, but it is hard to tell.
|
|
|
|
|
FriscoWilderness
Jan 29, 2012, 11:02 AM
Post #8 of 32
(2582 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 85
|
Those are limiting knots, used to reduce extension and provide equalization.
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Jan 30, 2012, 8:03 AM
Post #9 of 32
(2423 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
marc801 wrote: bill413 wrote: rgold wrote: I don't pretend to know what the rigger had in mind, but I'd guess it is not so much redundancy but rather not wanting to weight the figure-eights so much they can't be untied. Oh, I like that. My thought was that the current configuration is shortened to make a rappel start easier, then it would be lengthened so the master point was in the right spot for the climb. Last person lengthens it and has a worse rap start, or walks off. Gee, and here I thought it was a newbie applying a single, hard and fast one-size-fits-all rule s/he had learned without assessing the specifics of that anchoring situation and making simplification adjustments as necessary.
Ah - another thought:
Person rigged the anchor in the long configuration; realized master point was now below the crux and needed to shorten the anchor. Put in the additional two biners & clove hitches to bring it to the right length, but was too lazy to take out the original hardware.
|
|
|
|
|
iknowfear
Jan 30, 2012, 1:02 PM
Post #10 of 32
(2344 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 581
|
I wonder (amongst many other thoughts): Why the taped ends (left)? People have clipped into this sort of configuration (missing the correct strand) and died.
|
|
|
|
|
bearbreeder
Jan 30, 2012, 5:43 PM
Post #13 of 32
(2225 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 1, 2009
Posts: 1844
|
can someone explain why "climbers" on the intrawebs care so much about other peoples TR anchors ... and love to list the million ways they are going to die from em ...
in real life the only people who go off about other peoples anchors at the crags are complete newbs who want to show off how much they "know" ... every experienced climber i know who sees a TRULY dangerous anchor has a quiet word with the person ...
just because it isnt set up the way youd set it up, doesnt mean its "unsafe"
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jan 30, 2012, 5:45 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Jan 31, 2012, 5:37 AM
Post #14 of 32
(2144 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4572
|
bearbreeder wrote: can someone explain why "climbers" on the intrawebs care so much about other peoples TR anchors ... and love to list the million ways they are going to die from em ...
Because it makes them feel good.
In reply to: in real life the only people who go off about other peoples anchors at the crags are complete newbs who want to show off how much they "know" ... every experienced climber i know who sees a TRULY dangerous anchor has a quiet word with the person ... just because it isnt set up the way youd set it up, doesnt mean its "unsafe"
Agreed.
On a separate note... I don't mean to go all jt512 on you, but how come you don't use capitalization or periods in any of your sentences? I am not an English major, but basic writing skills do make it easier to read.
(You see what I did there ^. Calling people out for their anchors = lame. Calling people out for their writing skills = cool.)
Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Jan 31, 2012, 5:38 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jan 31, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #15 of 32
(2107 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18681
|
Typical newbie over-thinking and over-rigging when simpler methods will do.
|
|
|
|
|
LostinMaine
Jan 31, 2012, 9:10 AM
Post #16 of 32
(2079 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 8, 2007
Posts: 539
|
To make little girls ask questions.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Jan 31, 2012, 9:32 AM
Post #17 of 32
(2075 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2008
Posts: 5169
|
bearbreeder wrote: can someone explain why "climbers" on the intrawebs care so much about other peoples TR anchors ... and love to list the million ways they are going to die from em ... in real life the only people who go off about other peoples anchors at the crags are complete newbs who want to show off how much they "know" ... every experienced climber i know who sees a TRULY dangerous anchor has a quiet word with the person ... just because it isnt set up the way youd set it up, doesnt mean its "unsafe"
Because there are n00bs a plenty who benefit from being told.
|
|
|
|
|
Toast_in_the_Machine
Jan 31, 2012, 5:15 PM
Post #19 of 32
(1968 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 11, 2008
Posts: 5169
|
bearbreeder wrote: Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: Because there are n00bs a plenty who benefit from being told. by people on RC? ... doubt it ... if they want to learn ... go out and buy craig luebbens anchor book ... or learn from someone in real life ... at the very least go to a climbing site with more professional material like the BMC, AAI, etc ... its generallty a bad idea to learn climbing safety from a internet forum
(insert boilerplate disclaimer here)
The number 1 safety skill, climbing or otherwise, is solid judgement (* - see below). There is no better collection of miss matched ideas, bad ideas, good ideas, solid physics, woo, and snarky comments about climbing safety than RC.n00b.
If one dedicates oneself, one can poke thru each thread, getting ideas about what constitutes a good anchor, what are the physics involved (OK a degree in it can help), and what are the factors that one needs to be aware of. Plus, one gets both the "right" idea and, often, several bad ideas. But here is the real secret - one doesn't know what is good and what is bad by just the poster, one must develop one's judgement to know what is good and what isn't.
For example, one of the best posters here, by any measure, is [rgold]. When he posts, I tend to read carefully because, unlike me he has a high signal to noise ratio. However, I have read posts where he has had a position that others here disagreed with. I agreed with the people that disagreed with [rgold]. Because, Richard isn't right 100% of the time and I need to use my judgement, and my influences (like my personal tolerance for risk) as a developed filter for information. Is my judgement better than [rgold]? Eff no effing way, but it is better because I critically examine his posts.
Same with the pictures from the OP for this thread. The first thing I thought of was the same "why the eff would I ever want to use this rig?" But to answer that I need to think carefully about the potential merits and the potential downside of such a rig.
So, the clove hitch could be used to adjust the length of a top rope rig. But (my judgement), on a simple top rope bolted anchor - there are better ways. This could be a means shorten rope to get the master point exactly the height. But (my judgment), the fact that the person did this symetrically means that they are not adjusting for rope distance.
Sure, I look at the "real" sites and read the books, but as a simple n00b who uses two lockers, two ovals and two slings, seeing lots of other rigs tests my judgement. And that is something that RC.n00b provides better than any other source - be it books, be it local experts, or be it a "better" site.
It is precisely the mix of good ideas, snarky comments, bad ideas, and the wild n00b that give an excellet dataset by which one can learn climbing safety.
(*) - yes, posting on RC.n00b can be considered a sign of questionable judgement.
|
|
|
|
|
guangzhou
Jan 31, 2012, 6:31 PM
Post #20 of 32
(1947 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 3388
|
blueeyedclimber wrote: bearbreeder wrote: can someone explain why "climbers" on the intrawebs care so much about other peoples TR anchors ... and love to list the million ways they are going to die from em ... Because it makes them feel good.
So true.
In reply to: in real life the only people who go off about other peoples anchors at the crags are complete newbs who want to show off how much they "know" ... every experienced climber i know who sees a TRULY dangerous anchor has a quiet word with the person ... just because it isnt set up the way youd set it up, doesnt mean its "unsafe"
Agreed.
While climbing in Colorado, a group of teens from the local gym were top-roping near my wife and I. (other friends too)They had one of the Gym's staff with them as a "guide."
Because the cliff was only 80 feet or so, I would and have my delayer lower me. I would then lead another route on another rope and the four of us would leap frog routes down the cliff to maximize climbing. (almost always two routes up with four people)
Anyways, this "guide" from the gym was setting up a TR when my wife topped out on our and stopped my wife for a few.
She explained to my wife that she should be careful who she climbs with because my anchor wasn't very good according to all the training she had received. My wife answered with my husband is pretty safe, smiled and when she lowered told me about it.
Thinking I may have missed something, I headed up to double check my system, was happy with what I saw and the four of us continued leap frogging down the cliff.
The next day, my wife and I were teaching a site management clinic that focused on dealing with teens.
One of the people int he group was the same girl who told my wife my anchor wasn't safe.
Part of the clinic was anchor evaluation, so I set up the same anchor and each participant set up various anchors. (Same cliff as the previous day)
What she didn't like about the system I used was that I used a single cordelette, doubled over, with a knot. A photo would be useful, but...
She felt that I needed at least two cordelete in case the first was cut by an edge or something. I explained why a stand of the cordelette being cut in this case was unlikely and should a strand be cut, it wouldn't result in anchor failure .
She continued to state that everything she had ever been thought.( one year climbing) was to use at least two separate slings in case one was cut. I showed how the knot created a double sling in the coordelette, she didn't agree.
So, I tested the system by putting myself on the system and asking her where a cut would cause anchor failure. She showed me several places stands, I had my wife cut one while I was on the anchor and nothing happen. I had her cut a second, and still nothing, I explained that I couldn't cut the third.
In reply to: On a separate note... I don't mean to go all jt512 on you, but how come you don't use capitalization or periods in any of your sentences? I am not an English major, but basic writing skills do make it easier to read. (You see what I did there ^. Calling people out for their anchors = lame. Calling people out for their writing skills = cool.) Josh
James Joyce
Finnegans Wake
Also check out danah michele boyd, not capitalized at her request. She also felt that "I" shouldn't be capitalized because it made people pompous and arrogant if I remember correctly. English is the only language that does capitalize "I" as a personal pronoun.
(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jan 31, 2012, 6:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Feb 2, 2012, 5:03 PM
Post #21 of 32
(1802 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2232
|
blueeyedclimber wrote: I don't know why there are TWO clove hitches, but using a clove hitch makes it easier to equalize it when done from above the anchor because of it's adjustablity.
Absolutely.
blueeyedclimber wrote: As far as I know, the AMGA still recommends that clove hitches be backed up on top rope anchors (hence the 2 figure 8's).
I see nothing in the AMGA Technical Handbook about backing up clove hitches in any application. Maybe you're thinking of the bowline, about which the AMGA is very clear: "Always use a stopper knot".
Having said that, I know some very experienced AMGA guides who will clip the tail of any knot or hitch on a bight. They worry about Fig 8's rolling and hitches slipping, even when the situation renders that impossible (e.g. loading the F8 "eye-against-leg", as opposed to "pulling the eye apart" which MAY present a capsizing threat), and when testing shows that a clove hitch does not slip more than a couple cm on its way to tightening to an ultimate strength >10 kN. But of course it's no use challenging these folks' beliefs. I suspect we're seeing some of that misplaced caution in this anchor.
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Feb 3, 2012, 6:34 AM
Post #22 of 32
(1740 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4572
|
gunkiemike wrote: I see nothing in the AMGA Technical Handbook about backing up clove hitches in any application. Maybe you're thinking of the bowline, about which the AMGA is very clear: "Always use a stopper knot".
I haven't looked at the technical handbook in years and I don't remember seeing it either. I was more referring to conversations I have had with my instructor and conversations that he has had with Adam Fox of Fox Mountain guides. This was quite a few years ago and I am not positive I am remembering it correctly, but I believe my instructor was advised that they still consider a clove hitch on a TR anchor something to back up. It is simple enough, so I have always complied with that.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Feb 3, 2012, 10:28 AM
Post #23 of 32
(1680 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9675
|
Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: bearbreeder wrote: Toast_in_the_Machine wrote: Because there are n00bs a plenty who benefit from being told. by people on RC? ... doubt it ... if they want to learn ... go out and buy craig luebbens anchor book ... or learn from someone in real life ... at the very least go to a climbing site with more professional material like the BMC, AAI, etc ... its generallty a bad idea to learn climbing safety from a internet forum (insert boilerplate disclaimer here) The number 1 safety skill, climbing or otherwise, is solid judgement (* - see below). There is no better collection of miss matched ideas, bad ideas, good ideas, solid physics, woo, and snarky comments about climbing safety than RC.n00b. If one dedicates oneself, one can poke thru each thread, getting ideas about what constitutes a good anchor, what are the physics involved (OK a degree in it can help), and what are the factors that one needs to be aware of. Plus, one gets both the "right" idea and, often, several bad ideas. But here is the real secret - one doesn't know what is good and what is bad by just the poster, one must develop one's judgement to know what is good and what isn't. For example, one of the best posters here, by any measure, is [rgold]. When he posts, I tend to read carefully because, unlike me he has a high signal to noise ratio. However, I have read posts where he has had a position that others here disagreed with. I agreed with the people that disagreed with [rgold]. Because, Richard isn't right 100% of the time and I need to use my judgement, and my influences (like my personal tolerance for risk) as a developed filter for information. Is my judgement better than [rgold]? Eff no effing way, but it is better because I critically examine his posts. Same with the pictures from the OP for this thread. The first thing I thought of was the same "why the eff would I ever want to use this rig?" But to answer that I need to think carefully about the potential merits and the potential downside of such a rig. So, the clove hitch could be used to adjust the length of a top rope rig. But (my judgement), on a simple top rope bolted anchor - there are better ways. This could be a means shorten rope to get the master point exactly the height. But (my judgment), the fact that the person did this symetrically means that they are not adjusting for rope distance. Sure, I look at the "real" sites and read the books, but as a simple n00b who uses two lockers, two ovals and two slings, seeing lots of other rigs tests my judgement. And that is something that RC.n00b provides better than any other source - be it books, be it local experts, or be it a "better" site. It is precisely the mix of good ideas, snarky comments, bad ideas, and the wild n00b that give an excellet dataset by which one can learn climbing safety. (*) - yes, posting on RC.n00b can be considered a sign of questionable judgement.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Feb 3, 2012, 10:45 AM
Post #24 of 32
(1654 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8183
|
j_ung wrote: Typical newbie over-thinking and over-rigging when simpler methods will do.
probably the best answer here so far
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
