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Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch.
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jnorg


Feb 14, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch.
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I just bought a cinch. I am used to belaying with a Gri Gri and was wondering if it matters if the face plate on the cinch is facing the left as long as the rope is threaded correctly. In this instructional video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkOVssfihn0, it says to make sure the faceplate is facing to the left and that the rope to the climber is coming out of the front of the cinch. When top-rope belaying with the Gri Gri I always have the break rope coming out of the front of the gri gri, I don't think it should matter but I just thought I would see what others thought. Thanks!


(This post was edited by jnorg on Feb 14, 2012, 4:53 PM)


jae8908


Feb 14, 2012, 6:25 PM
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Re: [jnorg] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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doesn't matter as far as function goes which way its facing(as long as it is loaded correctly) but it's easier to take/feed slack with the rope running out the front(away from you)


billcoe_


Feb 14, 2012, 8:02 PM
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Re: [jnorg] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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jnorg wrote:
I just bought a cinch. I am used to belaying with a Gri Gri and was wondering if it matters if the face plate on the cinch is facing the left as long as the rope is threaded correctly. In this instructional video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkOVssfihn0, it says to make sure the faceplate is facing to the left and that the rope to the climber is coming out of the front of the cinch. When top-rope belaying with the Gri Gri I always have the break rope coming out of the front of the gri gri, I don't think it should matter but I just thought I would see what others thought. Thanks!

Start by looking at the manual. Then read it again. From a similar thread below, think about "ground school" where crashes are survivable. Good luck.

billcoe_ wrote:
other wrote:
this thread has got a lot of attention. I was dropped by 2 different gri gri 1 users that had used it several times safely. They wern't noobs. I don't think giving a noob an ATC is safer then a GG.
Obviously it was operator error. The question is whether a GG2 or other autolock device is less suspect to operator error then a GG1.
Is the consensus that the gri gri 2 is better for lowering but worse for lead belaying? That would make it bad for lead belaying and force me to use two devices. Does the mammut smart auto lock as well as the gg2 and feed smoother for lowering and lead belaying? what about cinch vs smart vs gg2?
thanks

Other, I would suggest a few things.

1st) re-read JT's post above. It's good. Anyone who would drop you is a noob. They don't have enough training to do the first thing we all should learn perfect correctly. They're noobs. No device is foolproof. A perfect belay can be had only via training and practice, it' is a truism for any belay devices. Stop looking at "devices" and start looking at your partners. A skilled belayer can stop a 60 foot leader fall on the shield headwall WITH A HIP BELAY (back cleaning of gear + piece finally pulling = long lead fall) . Thats a no device belay with only the rope wrapped around the belayer waist waist. I'm suggesting that instead of looking at devices, you reexamine your own mindset. I'm not trying to offend here or put anyone down, all experienced climbers get that experience somehow, and often they have some amazing horror stories how they purchased that experience, please just read through. Mindset and experience can't be underestimated in my view.

2nd) I don't climb with anyone who I don't feel has 2 solid years in. Solid as in learning the craft, not playing at it. Someone can play at it for 3 or 4 years and still be a noob. So ya have to kind of feel it out. I will, on rare occasion, go out with somebody that is new, but to me that is called "learning" and "teaching" and is different than "climbing". Really. I'm not joking. Say you have a hot new girlfriend you meet in a climbing gym and you really want to go climbing with her despite my thoughts on never climbing with someone new.

Now, this really happened to a buddy who got dropped at the local cliff by a hottie, it's not hypothetical. You find out that she's been climbing for weeks...at least 2....and has successfully belayed with a grigri multiple times. 4 times let say. What you need to do is to teach that person the craft. This should start a long time before you get near a cliff. You say, "lets practice belaying". I start with an ATC, but they may be experts with a Grigri and not be comfortable with an atc. So be flexible. You'd grab a rope and harness's and get in front of your house and say, "please tie yourself off to that telephone pole and I mosey down the sidewalk and you can set up a belay and belay me over." She isn't going to know shitfuck how to do this. Trust me. But she's looking smokin hot, so you will show patience in lieu of showing the overt lust still lurking deep within your heart. So show her how to tie herself off to the telephone pole and let her do it so she can learn it for herself. Thats her first clue that she doesn't know fuck all about jack shit and would kill you at the first opportunity. Explain that the MOST important thing in climbing is not dropping you by giving a perfect belay. Perfect means 100% and that is radically different than 99.8 percent. With 99.8 percent you will eventually have the odds catch up to you and get dropped. Possibly resulting in broken bones, pain, even death. Certainly you'll have a psychological issue to overcome every time you see a hottie in a short skirt.

So have her connect everything and slowly walk towards her as she "belays" you waling on the sidewalk. You may have to start off right next to her showing the hands and reiterating "NEVER TAKE YOUR BRAKE HAND OFF THE ROPE!!!!!!" Try like hell not to yell or get frustrated or those condoms you bought for the perfect evening will be used to make balloon puppets. Get her so that shes smooth, then have her belay you back and forth a rope length and every few steps you yell 'FALLING" and really doa fall pulling fast on the rope. Remind her again how critical this single skill is, that her perfecting it will keep you both alive, and congratulate her as she catches on. Then have her switch hands. Different devices. Then just fall with out announcing it till afterwards....all while watching to see what she does.

After she has this dialed, head to the rocks. You are still not "climbing", you are teaching. Sure, you want to get some laps, but more importantly, you want to survive it and develop a great partner. So you have a 3rd person come along, lets call this a "menage-belay-trois." All you are going to do is toprope like in the gym, so have your buddy belay your lead, set up a toprope. If you are unsure if hottie can belay yet, have her practice with a bunch of slack on the ground. Then once she re-gets it (presumably she "had it" during your telephone pole practice shesh) have at it. With the 3 of you on the ground, have hottie belay buddy. Your job is most important here, it's to make sure that buddy survives. You can easily do this and it doesn't involve picking your nose or letting your hands run over the hotties warm panties under her dress while you buddy is climbing.

You both pay attention and hold the brake end of the rope in a manner not to impede your new girlfriends ability to give a perfect belay to bro, but keeping your hands on it, if she were to totally let go, you could just pull back and it would brake. Called a firemans belay. Thats why you have 3 folks. As bro climbs you watch the belay and make sure its perfect. You already clued him in that he's got to jump off unannounced 3/4 of the way up. Make sure she pays attention, but don't let her know. You see how this is going? Eventually, your trust level with be super high,and you'll have seen that shes 100% perfect, which is what all belays should be, and you'll have the start of a great partner.

For many, no one has taught them that evaluating a partner is of prime importance and also 100% your own responsibility. You are the reason you were dropped twice. Check out my words again above, and if you are at the gym or outside and meet up with a new partner, grab that 3rd person if you really want to climb with them and back up any belays they give ya or as a minimum, watch them carefully as they belay others before you let them belay you. Lastly, for those moments when you are caught unaware and the person is claiming good skill, get the Eddy. It comes closest to auto locking. But safety is still skill and that is still inside of folks brain, and no device is fool proof.

Take care and good luck with it moving forward.


bill413


Feb 27, 2012, 9:31 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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bill - I read this before, and am still amazed at how perfectly and memorably you capture the the essential elements of the situation.


Colinhoglund


Feb 27, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Re: [billcoe_] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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Some of the best advice I've heard on this sight recently. I go through much the same process with newer belayers. If you haven't been belaying regularly for at least a year, and there's no one around to watch you. I'm soloing, at least in my mind. I won't really give it a go unless I 100% trust a belayer. FYI, of the 2 dozen people I climb with, 100% of them I trust on TR belay. 50% I'll lead with them on easier stuff. An lastly only about 20% of them do I trust 100% to give a fantastic belay while I give it my all.

Most people don't realize that there is a difference between a SAFE belay and a GREAT belay. A safe belay is the 100% sure they will keep me alive kind of person. A GREAT belayer will do that, but also not shortrope, communicate well, keep the exact right amount of slack in the system etc; and this takes a huge amount of experience, several years+. So as per above, everyone I climb with will give a SAFE belay, but only a few will give a GREAT belay. And it's with those few that I climb the most with, and have sent the best routes with.


bearbreeder


Feb 27, 2012, 10:32 PM
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Re: [Colinhoglund] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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Colinhoglund wrote:


Most people don't realize that there is a difference between a SAFE belay and a GREAT belay. A safe belay is the 100% sure they will keep me alive kind of person. A GREAT belayer will do that, but also not shortrope, communicate well, keep the exact right amount of slack in the system etc; and this takes a huge amount of experience, several years+. So as per above, everyone I climb with will give a SAFE belay, but only a few will give a GREAT belay. And it's with those few that I climb the most with, and have sent the best routes with.

thats very well put ...

just to add a belayer of PURE AWESOMENESS will keep you alive and possibly unhurt even when you totally screw up ... ie gear pops and he throws himself off a ledge to prevent you from decking, etc ... basically risks his/her life to keep the climber safe ...


(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 27, 2012, 10:33 PM)


GeckoBat


Feb 28, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Re: [jnorg] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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To answer your question, if you follow the video, you may find it noticeably convenient while lowering (when you've got your thumb on the pivot of the handle and your fingers on the handle -- with your left hand if you're right handed).

When attached to your 'biner the other way, you may find that it's a crossover to reach the handle with your left hand. This was the older method depicted in Mal Daly's original video.

Does this answer your question?


Colinhoglund


Feb 29, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Top-Rope belaying with a Cinch. [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:
Colinhoglund wrote:


Most people don't realize that there is a difference between a SAFE belay and a GREAT belay. A safe belay is the 100% sure they will keep me alive kind of person. A GREAT belayer will do that, but also not shortrope, communicate well, keep the exact right amount of slack in the system etc; and this takes a huge amount of experience, several years+. So as per above, everyone I climb with will give a SAFE belay, but only a few will give a GREAT belay. And it's with those few that I climb the most with, and have sent the best routes with.

thats very well put ...

just to add a belayer of PURE AWESOMENESS will keep you alive and possibly unhurt even when you totally screw up ... ie gear pops and he throws himself off a ledge to prevent you from decking, etc ... basically risks his/her life to keep the climber safe ...

Exactly!


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