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traddad
Feb 17, 2012, 9:35 AM
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In reply to: This week, the Virginia state Legislature passed a bill that would require women to have an ultrasound before they may have an abortion. Because the great majority of abortions occur during the first 12 weeks, that means most women will be forced to have a transvaginal procedure, in which a probe is inserted into the vagina, and then moved around until an ultrasound image is produced. Since a proposed amendment to the bill—a provision that would have had the patient consent to this bodily intrusion or allowed the physician to opt not to do the vaginal ultrasound—failed on 64-34 vote, the law provides that women seeking an abortion in Virginia will be forcibly penetrated for no medical reason.
http://www.slate.com/...l_reason.single.html
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veganclimber
Feb 17, 2012, 9:49 AM
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So basically, if a woman is raped and gets pregnant as a result, she is now forced to go through a similar procedure again. That is, unless she wants to accept the "gift" she was given.
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Allfred
Feb 17, 2012, 10:29 AM
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You'd hope the backlash on this would be severe.
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notapplicable
Feb 17, 2012, 12:05 PM
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traddad wrote: In reply to: This week, the Virginia state Legislature passed a bill that would require women to have an ultrasound before they may have an abortion. Because the great majority of abortions occur during the first 12 weeks, that means most women will be forced to have a transvaginal procedure, in which a probe is inserted into the vagina, and then moved around until an ultrasound image is produced. Since a proposed amendment to the bill—a provision that would have had the patient consent to this bodily intrusion or allowed the physician to opt not to do the vaginal ultrasound—failed on 64-34 vote, the law provides that women seeking an abortion in Virginia will be forcibly penetrated for no medical reason.
It gets worse...
In reply to: Virginia lawmakers took a step toward outlawing abortion on Tuesday by approving "personhood" legislation that grants individual rights to an embryo from the moment of conception. The Republican-controlled House of Delegates voted 66-32 in favor of defining the word person under state law to include unborn children "from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development." The measure now heads to the Senate, which is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats but with Republican Lieutenant Governor Bill Bolling wielding the tie-breaking vote.
http://www.reuters.com/...dUSTRE81E22A20120215
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petsfed
Feb 17, 2012, 4:36 PM
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notapplicable wrote: It gets worse... In reply to: Virginia lawmakers took a step toward outlawing abortion on Tuesday by approving "personhood" legislation that grants individual rights to an embryo from the moment of conception. The Republican-controlled House of Delegates voted 66-32 in favor of defining the word person under state law to include unborn children "from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development." The measure now heads to the Senate, which is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats but with Republican Lieutenant Governor Bill Bolling wielding the tie-breaking vote.
Sweet, homicide investigation after every miscarriage!
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Feb 18, 2012, 12:03 PM
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petsfed wrote: notapplicable wrote: It gets worse... In reply to: Virginia lawmakers took a step toward outlawing abortion on Tuesday by approving "personhood" legislation that grants individual rights to an embryo from the moment of conception. The Republican-controlled House of Delegates voted 66-32 in favor of defining the word person under state law to include unborn children "from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development." The measure now heads to the Senate, which is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats but with Republican Lieutenant Governor Bill Bolling wielding the tie-breaking vote. Sweet, homicide investigation after every miscarriage!
Despairing, depressing, but not world ending. If most of the state's populace agrees with the legislation, well, the few women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there in a way that actually shows some respect for their most elemental dignity as human beings. If the voters don't agree with the legislation, they'll vote the candidates out of office next time and get this stupid, stupid legal provision repealed.
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happiegrrrl
Feb 18, 2012, 12:20 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote: ...women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there...
Can ALWAYS???
I'm well past the age where I would be in the position of having to consider having an abortion, but I well remember what it was like, when I was a young woman in Wisconsin, working minimum-wage jobs, and the few years earlier, in high school.
This is the age range of *most* women who have abortions. To suggest they can "always drive to another state" is an ignorant statement, even in this day and age where a person can find the information online.
The person is going to need money for the procedure, money for the gas, a friend who will accompany them, a car that is road-worthy for what might likely be an overnight trip, time available to take that two days for the effort...
Have you ever had to care for someone having an abortion? It's not a "hop in the car, and back before you know it" sort of thing...
This whole path really IS a war on women. I can imagine in the future these states who have made abortion a criminal offense, or unobtainable for a percentage of the population, will begin a repeal on child support obligations.
What the HELL are these pasty old men so afraid of, anyway?
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petsfed
Feb 19, 2012, 12:19 PM
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No, if we make fetuses persons, then the DA will have to examine every miscarriage for the possibility of wrong-doing.
And it be a pretty big problem if one state calls something murder when another state doesn't it. It'd be the sort of jurisdictional nightmare that would lead the federal government to step in.
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macherry
Feb 19, 2012, 1:01 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote: petsfed wrote: notapplicable wrote: It gets worse... In reply to: Virginia lawmakers took a step toward outlawing abortion on Tuesday by approving "personhood" legislation that grants individual rights to an embryo from the moment of conception. The Republican-controlled House of Delegates voted 66-32 in favor of defining the word person under state law to include unborn children "from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development." The measure now heads to the Senate, which is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats but with Republican Lieutenant Governor Bill Bolling wielding the tie-breaking vote. Sweet, homicide investigation after every miscarriage! Despairing, depressing, but not world ending. If most of the state's populace agrees with the legislation, well, the few women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there in a way that actually shows some respect for their most elemental dignity as human beings. If the voters don't agree with the legislation, they'll vote the candidates out of office next time and get this stupid, stupid legal provision repealed.
if thats the argument, let every state institute anti gay, anti women and racist laws...these people move somewhere else.
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squierbypetzl
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Feb 19, 2012, 2:00 PM
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petsfed wrote: And it be a pretty big problem if one state calls something murder when another state doesn't it. It'd be the sort of jurisdictional nightmare that would lead the federal government to step in.
Yes but no. States' sovereignty allows them to legislate on penal matters such as what does and does not constitute criminal homicide. However, your post does illustrate another source of potential conflict, namely the extra-territorial application of the law. I'll post up when I come to a conclusion on that subject.
macherry wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: Despairing, depressing, but not world ending. If most of the state's populace agrees with the legislation, well, the few women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there in a way that actually shows some respect for their most elemental dignity as human beings. If the voters don't agree with the legislation, they'll vote the candidates out of office next time and get this stupid, stupid legal provision repealed. if thats the argument, let every state institute anti gay, anti women and racist laws...these people move somewhere else.
Moving to another state and taking a 1 day trip to see a doctor are not the same thing. I don't agree with what they're doing, and it does make me sick that politicians in XXI century America can still get away with this kind of bullshit, but that's not gonna help the situation is it?
It's easier to feel and act outraged than it is to keep a cool head and look at the whole situation realistically. I'm just suggesting people try out the latter.
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veganclimber
Feb 19, 2012, 2:23 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote: It's easier to feel and act outraged than it is to keep a cool head and look at the whole situation realistically. I'm just suggesting people try out the latter.
Why not both?
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lena_chita
Moderator
Feb 20, 2012, 7:37 AM
Post #13 of 41
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squierbypetzl wrote: petsfed wrote: notapplicable wrote: It gets worse... In reply to: Virginia lawmakers took a step toward outlawing abortion on Tuesday by approving "personhood" legislation that grants individual rights to an embryo from the moment of conception. The Republican-controlled House of Delegates voted 66-32 in favor of defining the word person under state law to include unborn children "from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development." The measure now heads to the Senate, which is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats but with Republican Lieutenant Governor Bill Bolling wielding the tie-breaking vote. Sweet, homicide investigation after every miscarriage! Despairing, depressing, but not world ending. If most of the state's populace agrees with the legislation, well, the few women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there in a way that actually shows some respect for their most elemental dignity as human beings. If the voters don't agree with the legislation, they'll vote the candidates out of office next time and get this stupid, stupid legal provision repealed.
Really?
And they will have to pay how much extra for the privilege of not being subjected to an unnecessary test? Because, you know, a lot of people have insurance policies that heavily penalize going out-of-network, and that is on top of all the other expenses you might have to incur: hotel for an overnight stay? Gas? Time off for a friend/partner who drives with you?
This sort of legislation makes me see red, big time.
On one hand, sure, ultrasound, even transvaginal, is not that big a deal, in terms of invasiveness of the procedure, compared to the D&C that the woman is about to undergo.
On the other hand, WHY is it that the same conservatives who scream about unnecessary spending and about some scammers driving up the costs for everybody else, become all of a sudden O.K. with a completely unnecessary procedure that is going to cost time and money?
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macherry
Feb 20, 2012, 10:30 AM
Post #14 of 41
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lena_chita wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: petsfed wrote: notapplicable wrote: It gets worse... In reply to: Virginia lawmakers took a step toward outlawing abortion on Tuesday by approving "personhood" legislation that grants individual rights to an embryo from the moment of conception. The Republican-controlled House of Delegates voted 66-32 in favor of defining the word person under state law to include unborn children "from the moment of conception until birth at every stage of biological development." The measure now heads to the Senate, which is evenly split between Republicans and Democrats but with Republican Lieutenant Governor Bill Bolling wielding the tie-breaking vote. Sweet, homicide investigation after every miscarriage! Despairing, depressing, but not world ending. If most of the state's populace agrees with the legislation, well, the few women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there in a way that actually shows some respect for their most elemental dignity as human beings. If the voters don't agree with the legislation, they'll vote the candidates out of office next time and get this stupid, stupid legal provision repealed. Really? And they will have to pay how much extra for the privilege of not being subjected to an unnecessary test? Because, you know, a lot of people have insurance policies that heavily penalize going out-of-network, and that is on top of all the other expenses you might have to incur: hotel for an overnight stay? Gas? Time off for a friend/partner who drives with you? This sort of legislation makes me see red, big time. On one hand, sure, ultrasound, even transvaginal, is not that big a deal, in terms of invasiveness of the procedure, compared to the D&C that the woman is about to undergo. On the other hand, WHY is it that the same conservatives who scream about unnecessary spending and about some scammers driving up the costs for everybody else, become all of a sudden O.K. with a completely unnecessary procedure that is going to cost time and money?
these are the same conservatives that want more personal rights and freedoms. so no gun control is okay, but more control over reproductive rights needs to be legislated.
bunch of hypocrites
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curt
Feb 20, 2012, 2:19 PM
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macherry wrote: ...these are the same conservatives that want more personal rights and freedoms. so no gun control is okay, but more control over reproductive rights needs to be legislated. bunch of hypocrites
The statements that Republicans are:
1) for personal freedoms
2) for fiscal responsibility
and
3) for limited government
are each completely absurd.
Curt
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j_ung
Feb 20, 2012, 5:53 PM
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curt wrote: macherry wrote: ...these are the same conservatives that want more personal rights and freedoms. so no gun control is okay, but more control over reproductive rights needs to be legislated. bunch of hypocrites The statements that Republicans are: 1) for personal freedoms 2) for fiscal responsibility and 3) for limited government are each completely absurd. Curt
I'm sitting here right now trying to come up with a word that means even more than "completely."
It's been a long time since I've been anything other than an unaffiliated voter—I don't want to be officially associated with either major party. But goddam, at least Democrats aren't getting more crazy by day. Can you fucking believe that birth control and prenatal screening are now campaign issues?
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ubu
Feb 20, 2012, 6:09 PM
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j_ung wrote: curt wrote: macherry wrote: ...these are the same conservatives that want more personal rights and freedoms. so no gun control is okay, but more control over reproductive rights needs to be legislated. bunch of hypocrites The statements that Republicans are: 1) for personal freedoms 2) for fiscal responsibility and 3) for limited government are each completely absurd. Curt I'm sitting here right now trying to come up with a word that means even more than "completely." It's been a long time since I've been anything other than an unaffiliated voter—I don't want to be officially associated with either major party. But goddam, at least Democrats aren't getting more crazy by day. Can you fucking believe that birth control and prenatal screening are now campaign issues?
Dude, the republicans imploded like 6 years ago. We're only just now seeing the shape of the event horizon surrounding the black hole created in that event.
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lena_chita
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Feb 22, 2012, 10:27 AM
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yeah, funny, but... I really liked the bill that would require a mandatory rectal exam and cardiac stress test for anyone wanting to get a Viagra prescription.
The only thing I would add is that the prescription should only be available in 3-month supply, and without a refill, unless the rectal exam was repeated.
Oh, and of course, God forbid, religious organizations shouldn't have to pay for any of that. If a guy has limp dick, surely it was God's will, and why would we presume to intervene?
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squierbypetzl
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Feb 22, 2012, 12:10 PM
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lena_chita wrote: yeah, funny, but... I really liked the bill that would require a mandatory rectal exam and cardiac stress test for anyone wanting to get a Viagra prescription. The only thing I would add is that the prescription should only be available in 3-month supply, and without a refill, unless the rectal exam was repeated. Oh, and of course, God forbid, religious organizations shouldn't have to pay for any of that. If a guy has limp dick, surely it was God's will, and why would we presume to intervene?
Quite a couple of weeks huh?
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iknowfear
Feb 23, 2012, 2:19 PM
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cracklover wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: ...women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there... Barring intervention by the Supreme Court, it's just a matter of time before Personhood passes in large swaths of the country. Your argument (faulty as it was to start with) starts to break down completely at that point. Oklahoma is next in line... http://www.reuters.com/...dUSTRE81F0ES20120216 ... but the whole bible belt will go unless things change. How do you feel about the fact that getting an abortion will be illegal, criminal, and impossible, in large swaths of the country. You still think that's no big deal? Edited to add: I think it's horrifying and disgraceful. GO
most likely outcome: a sharp rise in crime in 15 years or so...
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/00p599hk#page-2
http://de.wikipedia.org/...ed_Abortion_on_Crime
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j_ung
Feb 23, 2012, 5:20 PM
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iknowfear wrote: cracklover wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: ...women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there... Barring intervention by the Supreme Court, it's just a matter of time before Personhood passes in large swaths of the country. Your argument (faulty as it was to start with) starts to break down completely at that point. Oklahoma is next in line... http://www.reuters.com/...dUSTRE81F0ES20120216 ... but the whole bible belt will go unless things change. How do you feel about the fact that getting an abortion will be illegal, criminal, and impossible, in large swaths of the country. You still think that's no big deal? Edited to add: I think it's horrifying and disgraceful. GO most likely outcome: a sharp rise in crime in 15 years or so... http://escholarship.org/uc/item/00p599hk#page-2 http://de.wikipedia.org/...ed_Abortion_on_Crime
From the links you provided, I wouldn't conclude that at all. The wiki link explains the study that theorized a relationship between legal abortion and lower crime rates, but then cites several other studies that refute it.
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Feb 23, 2012, 6:16 PM
Post #24 of 41
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iknowfear wrote: cracklover wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: ...women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there... Barring intervention by the Supreme Court, it's just a matter of time before Personhood passes in large swaths of the country. Your argument (faulty as it was to start with) starts to break down completely at that point. Oklahoma is next in line... http://www.reuters.com/...dUSTRE81F0ES20120216 ... but the whole bible belt will go unless things change. How do you feel about the fact that getting an abortion will be illegal, criminal, and impossible, in large swaths of the country. You still think that's no big deal? Edited to add: I think it's horrifying and disgraceful. GO most likely outcome: a sharp rise in crime in 15 years or so... http://escholarship.org/uc/item/00p599hk#page-2 http://de.wikipedia.org/...ed_Abortion_on_Crime
I just noticed that I never clicked post reply on the response I had written earlier in this thread. I'm not going to write it again, but the basic idea was:
Expressing anger online to a bunch of strangers from all over the place is a great way to vent, but it probably won't help disolve the cause of your dismay. If you're just blowing off steam (not anyone personally), that's fine; if you're actually interested in contributing something to get this moronic piece of legislation off the books and those moronic examples of lawmakers out of office, do something useful with your outrage (organize sit-ins at congress, stage protests, gather signatures for a petition, raise awareness within the community...).
Outrage has it's place in a democratic society, but how much can it really help in this case, at this time? How many voters in these states actually disagree with those laws? Protests work if you can eventually get a (supposed) majority on your side, can that be done in this case? Or will it be necessary to judicialize the matter?*
*yes I know protests on a large enough scale can influence judicial decisions
Finally, i suggested that people find a way to not get worked up about things to the point that it clouds their judgement. The US is not a finished work, no society is. There will always be these kinds of challenges and setbacks, perhaps even greater ones as science and tech and society continue to evolve. The best way to get what you want is to keep a cool head and figure out what you need to do.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Feb 23, 2012, 6:51 PM
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j_ung wrote: iknowfear wrote: cracklover wrote: squierbypetzl wrote: ...women seeking the procedure can always go to a neighboring state and get it done there... Barring intervention by the Supreme Court, it's just a matter of time before Personhood passes in large swaths of the country. Your argument (faulty as it was to start with) starts to break down completely at that point. Oklahoma is next in line... http://www.reuters.com/...dUSTRE81F0ES20120216 ... but the whole bible belt will go unless things change. How do you feel about the fact that getting an abortion will be illegal, criminal, and impossible, in large swaths of the country. You still think that's no big deal? Edited to add: I think it's horrifying and disgraceful. GO most likely outcome: a sharp rise in crime in 15 years or so... http://escholarship.org/uc/item/00p599hk#page-2 http://de.wikipedia.org/...ed_Abortion_on_CrimeFrom the links you provided, I wouldn't conclude that at all. The wiki link explains the study that theorized a relationship between legal abortion and lower crime rates, but then cites several other studies that refute it.
The claim was made famous in the book "Freakonomics". Good blook, I highly recommend it. Hell, I'll even send you my copy.
The Podcast / appearance on Marketplace by Dubner are OK. Worth a listen, occasional insight, overall mixed
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