Forums: Climbing Information: Gear Heads:
Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well...
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Gear Heads

Premier Sponsor:

 


HannesN


Feb 19, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #1 of 23 (5050 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well...
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi everyone,

Just coming back from the first weekend of solo leading with the Eddy - or to be more precise the Bornack Lory - that is said to be the exact same device. I was pretty inspired by Healyje Article here on Rocklimbing.com (http://goo.gl/uF0jQ).

Things went okay and super-safe, nevertheless it was not an entirely pleasant experience. To my gusto the Eddy in my setup was way to sensitive and locking way to early. While slow and steady climbing - when both ends of the rope face straight downwards - the Eddy ran kind of reliable, but as soon there was some drag on either side of the rope the device locked instantanously. Also climbing a bit dynamic was completly out of question, since the Eddy just locked.

Pulling rope out of the device was hardly possible at all - the Eddy locked regardless how slow and in which direction I pulled the rope. I'm using a pretty new 10mm Edelrid Harrier, that is coated and should run quite smoothly. Healyje himself was praising the rope-feed with the Eddy. I wonder whether I missed out on something, that has some positve effect on the rope-feed?

I would appreciate if the ones of you, who do or did solo lead with the Eddy could share some of your wisdom. I attached some annotated photo of my setup - please correct me if I am totally wrong about something... I am fully aware that all this lead soloing is quite a bit more dangerous - my first attempts this weekend were redundantly secured. I'm trying to slowly work out a profound understanding and methodology of how to safely - and enjoyable - solo lead with the Eddy.

Looking forward to hear from you, Best,
H@nnes


erolls


Feb 19, 2012, 9:23 AM
Post #2 of 23 (5018 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 41

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've never used an eddy, just gg's modified and not modified. Assuming you're doing everything right or least acceptable in the realm of rope soloing, the one thing that has helped me with this is tying in short. Instead of simply tying a knot in the free end to block the rope from whizzing through the device, I tie into a locker on a short sling hanging off the belay loop. This takes most of the weight of the rope (free end) off your device and provides backup. Just make sure you make a big enough loop to get to the next piece or couple of pieces of pro. YMMV.

When you do tie in short be sure to rebelay as needed to prevent excessive slack.
-E


(This post was edited by erolls on Feb 19, 2012, 9:32 AM)


potreroed


Feb 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
Post #3 of 23 (4987 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1449

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Maybe it's because the Eddy was not designed for rope soloing on lead. Invest the $80 bucks on a Soloist and you'll be much happier.


HannesN


Feb 19, 2012, 11:42 AM
Post #4 of 23 (4972 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [erolls] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi -E,

Well I am not sure whether I fully understand. I'm confused about the "short sling hanging off the belay loop" notion. Do you happen to have some image that shows it? Sounds like just the kind of advise to me, that could improve my setup a lot. Thanks for this.

@ potreroed: Do not want to jump into a general gear discussion here. Had many reasons for the Eddy and very many against the Soloist. Now it is just the Eddy for me and knowing that many people obviously have great fun in climbing with it, I guess it must be my fault in constantly making it lock.


erolls


Feb 19, 2012, 12:14 PM
Post #5 of 23 (4964 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 29, 2006
Posts: 41

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hey Hannes,

You could just use a large locker on the belay loop. A sling makes it easier to manage. I used to use a 9" girth hitched around loop but now use a standard sling stuck through with an HMS clipped to both ends to eliminate the girth hitch. You can also tie multiple loops and when you run out of rope, untie the next in line and continue. Downside: trailing a bunch of loops can get in the way of your feet and/or stuck on flakes or in cracks etc. The rebelay (a long prusic, not a clove or knot) will also alleviate the weight on the anchor side of the rope freeing up your device to "flow" better. Practice on 5.easy slab and you'll learn a bunch.


HannesN


Feb 19, 2012, 12:33 PM
Post #6 of 23 (4951 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [erolls] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Still struggle to get it - realize my english vocabulary is meeting some limits here.
erolls wrote:
Practice on 5.easy slab and you'll learn a bunch.
That's what I did and that is what I will be doing...
Thanks again, Hannes


JimTitt


Feb 19, 2012, 12:35 PM
Post #7 of 23 (4947 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 977

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The problem is almost certainly the weight of rope hanging below you, specifically on the anchor side. You need to re-belay occasionally on the protection you are placing to take the weight of the rope (normally every 10metres or so). (This is what the other poster is trying to explain). Loads of ways for this but important is the rope can still move upwards through the piece when you fall, a loose Prusik is traditional, rubber bands can be effective and I use giant clothes pegs clipped on the rope above the protection karabiner as this is the easiest to do one handed.


HannesN


Feb 19, 2012, 12:54 PM
Post #8 of 23 (4939 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [JimTitt] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi Jim, Thanks for putting it in other words. Though the pitches I was doing were pretty short, I will give it another try following you guys advices, it's truly appreciated !

JimTitt wrote:
I use giant clothes pegs clipped on the rope above the protection karabiner as this is the easiest to do one handed.
This one again is somehow confusing... Any chance you have an image showing it?

Best, Hannes


healyje


Feb 19, 2012, 12:59 PM
Post #9 of 23 (4935 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4199

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

HannesN wrote:
Hi everyone,

Just coming back from the first weekend of solo leading with the Eddy - or to be more precise the Bornack Lory - that is said to be the exact same device. I was pretty inspired by Healyje Article here on Rocklimbing.com (http://goo.gl/uF0jQ).

Things went okay and super-safe, nevertheless it was not an entirely pleasant experience. To my gusto the Eddy in my setup was way to sensitive and locking way to early. While slow and steady climbing - when both ends of the rope face straight downwards - the Eddy ran kind of reliable, but as soon there was some drag on either side of the rope the device locked instantanously. Also climbing a bit dynamic was completly out of question, since the Eddy just locked.

Pulling rope out of the device was hardly possible at all - the Eddy locked regardless how slow and in which direction I pulled the rope. I'm using a pretty new 10mm Edelrid Harrier, that is coated and should run quite smoothly. Healyje himself was praising the rope-feed with the Eddy. I wonder whether I missed out on something, that has some positve effect on the rope-feed?

I would appreciate if the ones of you, who do or did solo lead with the Eddy could share some of your wisdom. I attached some annotated photo of my setup - please correct me if I am totally wrong about something... I am fully aware that all this lead soloing is quite a bit more dangerous - my first attempts this weekend were redundantly secured. I'm trying to slowly work out a profound understanding and methodology of how to safely - and enjoyable - solo lead with the Eddy.

Looking forward to hear from you, Best,
H@nnes

Could you describe your exact setup and / or post a picture of it...?


HannesN


Feb 19, 2012, 2:03 PM
Post #10 of 23 (4908 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [healyje] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hi,

Sure,

I thought to have attached a photo of my Eddy rope path already. Here it is again. Pretty much a copy of your design as described in your article - at least I hope so...

I use an Edelrid Harrier 10.2 mm rope, hardly worn. The routes were some straight 5+ 10m routes, bolted every 2.5m. I fixed the rope into the first bolt of the route neighboring route with a double figure eight; this for redundancy only, as in the first bolt of the climbed route. The Eddy was freely moving on the belay loop. The rope path was pretty straight up - no traverse or plateaus interfering.

I tried several setups in dealing with the loose end of the rope: 1. Letting it just fall, assuming the weight of hardly 10m would not make any problems 2. Stuffing the rope in the bag pack and feeding only 2m slack over my shoulder and 3. tying two knots to the gear loop, for again having only 2m of slack.

All had very similar effects on the Eddy's locking. What made me write here was that I really struggled to manually feed rope - how do you manually feed rope? Slowly straight down, the Eddy facing downwards (as in the photo)?

Would you mind having a short look at my rope path as shown on the photo? Having done any wrong here is what I was getting more and more concerned...

If that's all right; I will include the inspirations from your replies in my further setups, assuming that mastery in that art is not achieved within a weekend. Also I'll double-check again the Bornack Lory to be 100% the Edelrid Eddy (what I am quite sure about).

Thanks again, Hannes


(This post was edited by HannesN on Feb 19, 2012, 2:04 PM)
Attachments: EddyRopedSoloLead.jpg (115 KB)


billl7


Feb 19, 2012, 2:12 PM
Post #11 of 23 (4900 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

HannesN wrote:
@ potreroed: Do not want to jump into a general gear discussion here. Had many reasons for the Eddy and very many against the Soloist. Now it is just the Eddy for me and knowing that many people obviously have great fun in climbing with it, I guess it must be my fault in constantly making it lock.
A few weeks ago, I watched a friend do his first lead with a soloist. He was having a similar problem. So I don't think this is necessarily unique to the Eddy. Over and over I've read about getting your system dialed which seems likely to be the case here.

Full disclosure: I bought an Eddy and did some top-rope soloing with it. I am planning to eventually move on to leading with it when appropriate. I did find it a bit sticky in lead belaying but that was also on a fat rope.


HannesN


Feb 19, 2012, 2:21 PM
Post #12 of 23 (4889 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [billl7] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billl7 wrote:
So I don't think this is necessarily unique to the Eddy. Over and over I've read about getting your system dialed which seems likely to be the case here.
Very likely, in fact!
billl7 wrote:
I bought an Eddy and did some top-rope soloing with it.
I imagine top-rope soloing with the Eddy more troublesome than leading... Does it feed? Would love to hear about that too...


billl7


Feb 19, 2012, 2:38 PM
Post #13 of 23 (4878 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

HannesN wrote:
I imagine top-rope soloing with the Eddy more troublesome than leading... Does it feed?

I've only done top rope one time. The rope was around 10 mm in diameter. And, on that day, the rope was fixed to the anchor with a knot. I'll see if I can find the diameter and type of rope.

Edit 1: For top rope, one must feed it manually in my experience. Accepting that, it fed wonderfully:
Edit 2: It was a skinnier rope than I thought --- 9.5 mm Mammut Infinity; and I did not have a backup sling along side the locker, just backup knots locked to my harness belay loop.

a) Climb up 10 or 15 feet, pulling the slack through the device periodically.
b) Tie off the new loop below with a backup knot to a locker on the belay loop.
c) Move the last backup knot to a gear loop on the side.
d) Repeat.

Bill L


(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 19, 2012, 4:39 PM)


JimTitt


Feb 19, 2012, 2:54 PM
Post #14 of 23 (4871 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 977

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Joe Healy is your man for this since heīs the Eddy expert (I use a Grigri) but canīt help noticing that possibly with the back-up sling in the karabiner hole thereīs a chance the rope is rubbing a little bit on something which is death to any of the systems.

The clothes peg thing is easy, you are trying to stop the rope sliding down through your protection karabiner but you donīt under any circumstances want to stop it moving upwards (you need the stretch when you fall off). Just clip a large clothes peg onto the rope above the karabiner so it canīt slide back down through, easy when you try it. Giant pegs are better if you can get them and especially if you use larger karabiners. They are a good investment anyway for camping and even hanging out washing!

Jim


billl7


Feb 19, 2012, 5:50 PM
Post #15 of 23 (4827 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Clothes Peg or Clothes Pin


HannesN


Feb 20, 2012, 12:05 AM
Post #16 of 23 (4782 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [JimTitt] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

JimTitt wrote:
Joe Healy is your man for this since heīs the Eddy expert (I use a Grigri) but canīt help noticing that possibly with the back-up sling in the karabiner hole thereīs a chance the rope is rubbing a little bit on something which is death to any of the systems.
You're right! I was cautious not to have the back-up sling rubbing the rope while actual climbing - was just not accurate while doing the staged photo. Yes Joe Healy is the Eddy expert; I'm curious whether he comes back with some different ideas and/or observations about my setup.

billl7 wrote:
Edit 1: For top rope, one must feed it manually in my experience. Accepting that, it fed wonderfully:
Okay, that's obvious then. Thanks!


healyje


Feb 20, 2012, 5:50 AM
Post #17 of 23 (4753 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4199

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Assuming that the Lory is built to the same specs as the Eddy then it's all about the rope pairing. I find the Eddy works with these ropes:

9.8 Metolius Monster (Tendon / CZ) (new-ish)
9.9 Maxim Glider
10.2 Mammut Supersafe (new)

I'm sure other ropes in the 9.8 - 10.2 range will work, but these are the only ones I can vouch for personally. Bigger than 10.2 or older, fuzzy ropes don't really work at all and I'd be very wary of ropes skinnier than 9.8 - epecially newer ropes - in that they may not trip the locking cam.

I used a grigri for years before switching to the Eddy and I did so mainly because in the Eddy the rope runs the reverse of the grigri and that means so long as both sides of the rope run below the Eddy it almost can't trigger the locking cam. To that end I climb with the rope in a backpack (a modified Metolius Porta-cord pack) which I feed the rope out of a couple of meters at a time.

If the rope isn't feeding smoothly I'd guess the possibilities are:

1) the rope is too old, isn't coated, or too stiff
2) the larger backup sling is interfering with the rope
3) you aren't moving smooth and fluid enough so that you are tripping the locking cam all the time

I use the shortest Mammut 8mm (red-edge) sling as a backup and it doesn't contact the rope. so I have no concerns there. Could be the Harrier, but on looking at the specs it seems as though it should work ok if it's new-ish. That leaves the third option - you are moving too erratically - and only you'd know that or not. Jim, I don't suspect having too much rope out below is tripping the device as I experience just the opposite, it start running too smoothly and starts stripping rope on it's own - once it starts doing that I know I have to rebelay to stop the rope from streaming and piling at the anchor.

Overall the system works for me and I have easily over a thousand pitches in with the ropes listed above and with the rope fed from a backpack (through a small biner on the shoulder strap).

I'd say switch out that fat backup sling for a skinny Mammut 8mm sling, use a backpack, keep a couple meters of rope out, and then pay attention to your movement. Do all that and report back to us as to how that all goes...




(This post was edited by healyje on Feb 20, 2012, 1:51 PM)


billl7


Feb 20, 2012, 6:29 AM
Post #18 of 23 (4737 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [healyje] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

healyje wrote:
... I'd be very wary of ropes skinnier than 9.8 - especially newer ropes - in that they may not trip the locking cam.
Thank you for weighing in on this thread and noting that. The Eddy specification indicates a rope range down to 9.0 mm. At the same time, we are talking about an unadvertised application here where a brake hand is not on the brake strand virtually all of the time. From here out, I'll follow the above advice.

And I'll add that I understand every individual has to decide whether its a system that works for them.

Bill L


HannesN


Feb 20, 2012, 9:48 AM
Post #19 of 23 (4706 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [healyje] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

healyje wrote:
I'd say switch out that fat backup sling for a skinny Mammut 8mm sling, use a backpack, keep a couple meters of rope out, and then pay attention to your movement. Do all that and report back to us as to how that all goes...

Hi, many thanks for this most comprehensive reply. Come to think that it might in fact be a combination of several small but meaningful flaws in the system, the most noticeable probably me ; ) I will take all your advice in consideration and give myself some significantly more time to get it going. Still I wonder why I have that awful trouble when pulling rope manually.

Also: the Lory is in fact the exact same device as the Eddy. That's at least what a pretty large and reliable german reseller says. What I did find in my research about the device though is that Bornack had a recall of the Lory because of a bit to much play in the thrust rod (hope that translation makes sense), back in 2009. Does not sound to serious, but because they offer the Lory as an industrial kit, it was enough for a recall. Now they obviously changed the design and my Lory is a new one and not part of the devices in question.

Now here's my point: I wonder whether there are 2 slightly different designs/generations of the Eddy, that differ in the fine tuning of the cam mechanism. The change of "generations" most likely happened in 2010 I suppose. Is someone of you solo leading with a post 2010 Eddy. Also if you could check your devices according to the PDF in the link, that might further enlight this situation.

Here's the link to the PDF (unfortunately in german): http://files.hollerith.eu/Lory.pdf
BTW. Edelrid never had a recall - as far as I know


healyje


Feb 20, 2012, 1:54 PM
Post #20 of 23 (4667 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4199

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

It would only take sub-millimeter changes to the manufacture of the device to radically alter its performance. Again, can't speak for the Lory and I also see there was no recall on the Edelrid product. Could potentially be a factor.


HannesN


Feb 20, 2012, 3:05 PM
Post #21 of 23 (4648 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [healyje] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Did some more research in that matter.

1. The Bornack Lory is the exact same device as the Edelrid Eddy!

2. In 2010 all these devices - the Lory as the Eddy - were subject to a modest modification in the cam mechanism. So obviously there're at least 2 different generations of the Eddy out there!

It would not surprise me if this second generation Eddys is not as appropriate for the solo lead setup as the first generation - I for certain have a second generation device.

As said I will go ahead and give it another shot with another thinner and even better running rope, using no backup sling to interfere (no worries only this time) but using backup knots - and I will move as smooth as a gazelle - then I'll report back.

Also I just realized the troubleshooting part of the PDF is in english, so you might wanna check out whether you're solo leading with a 1. or 2. generation Eddy.

Again since I'm fairly confident that I did everything pretty decent at least I would not be surprised if my problems in fact result from a change in the cam design. That would be to bad for me and extremely helpful for everyone else who is considering an Eddy for that job.


HannesN


Feb 26, 2012, 2:16 PM
Post #22 of 23 (4504 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 19, 2012
Posts: 10

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Hi again,

Just coming back from my second Eddy-solo-lead-weekend and this time the Eddy absolutely worked/fed like a charm! Obviously my first problems came from a combination of mistakes I made before - most notably my poor rope management.

Being very cautious of always having a sling of between 3 to 6 meters of the the loose rope end tight to the belt worked best for me. Once the free end of the rope exceeds 6 meters its weight causes the Eddy to block whenever some more friction was added to the system. Speaking about friction: Also being very accurate to have the rope feeding "free" into the Eddy helped a lot for me. As soon as some friction was added - like the rope running over the leg instead of between the legs - the Eddy very easily blocked. Last but not least moving very slow and fluid certainly has some good effect on keeping the Eddy feeding smooth.

It truly requires some time to figure how to play that safe - to my personal standards - and enjoyable, but for now I'm glad to have given it a shot. So many thanks again for your valuable advise!

Best, Hannes


healyje


Feb 27, 2012, 12:55 AM
Post #23 of 23 (4437 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4199

Re: [HannesN] Edelrid Eddy Roped Solo Leading - not feeding well... [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Glad you found some improvement with it all. And, yes, very small details count and you also have to vigilantly monitor everything as you go.

It literally took me decades of doing this stuff to get to where I understood it all as well as I do, adjusted my movement and placements to suit roped-soloing, and worked up my speed a little bit at a time.

Arduous, but it can pay off in the end if you do stick with it.


Forums : Climbing Information : Gear Heads

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook