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traddad


Feb 27, 2012, 5:44 AM
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They want you stupid and uneducated...
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...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".


pinktricam


Feb 27, 2012, 6:44 AM
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Re: [traddad] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable [sic]...

"Stupid and uneducated," huh?

I suppose you get points for being ahead of the curve, big guy.


Partner j_ung


Feb 27, 2012, 1:51 PM
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Re: [traddad] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse. The wealthy people who don't have college educations are outliers, not the norm. That Santorum would willfully ignore what is common sense and accepted wisdom based on statistical evidence is just one more reason why I really really REALLY want him to win the Republican nomination. Santorum 2012! Whee!

Edit: Of course college isn't for every person. But every person should have an opportunity to go, regardless of their family's financial worth. Bear in mind, I'm speaking as someone who does not have a college degree, and yet is intelligent, happy, healthy, well adjusted...

authored a book...


(This post was edited by j_ung on Feb 27, 2012, 1:56 PM)


petsfed


Feb 27, 2012, 2:01 PM
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Re: [traddad] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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In reply to:
“Where does the social engineering stop?” Clement jumped back in, fired up. “Does it stop after we send everybody to college, or does it stop after we set their curriculum and said, ‘these are the things you’re allowed to study?’ Does it become the Soviet Union?”

Without comment (or, apparently, a sense of irony).


guangzhou


Feb 27, 2012, 6:25 PM
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Re: [j_ung] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse. The wealthy people who don't have college educations are outliers, not the norm. That Santorum would willfully ignore what is common sense and accepted wisdom based on statistical evidence is just one more reason why I really really REALLY want him to win the Republican nomination. Santorum 2012! Whee!

Edit: Of course college isn't for every person. But every person should have an opportunity to go, regardless of their family's financial worth. Bear in mind, I'm speaking as someone who does not have a college degree, and yet is intelligent, happy, healthy, well adjusted...

authored a book...

Not completely true. Yes, they are outliers for sure. Look at school teachers in America, most have 6+ years of education backing them up yet make less than a union construction worker or non-union plumber.

I agree every should have the opportunity to go to college, and in America, the system allows for that. You can drop out of high school and a few years later decided you want to go to college and get in. (Starts with some junior college classes and move up)

I don't beleive free education is the best deal. Look at public education in America, when things are free, people don't take them as seriously. (Visit some public high schools and watch students.)

Education comes in many forms. I like the idea of high schools moving into two tracks, one for trades (Electrician, plumbers and such) the other for those who want to go to college.


On the other end of the spectrum, they many people with college degree who earn next to nothing. They have educations and still work for bad pay. A high education doesn't mean you earn more pay, it just offers another door to enter the market with.

I also don't define education by college degree.


Partner j_ung


Feb 27, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
A high education doesn't mean you earn more pay...

It's certainly not a guarantee, but your chances of earning more are considerably higher with a college education than without. This isn't my opinion. It's fact backed up by study after study.

Nevertheless, I don't think we're disagreeing here. I think we're mostly saying the same thing.


scrapedape


Feb 28, 2012, 5:10 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse. The wealthy people who don't have college educations are outliers, not the norm. That Santorum would willfully ignore what is common sense and accepted wisdom based on statistical evidence is just one more reason why I really really REALLY want him to win the Republican nomination. Santorum 2012! Whee!

Edit: Of course college isn't for every person. But every person should have an opportunity to go, regardless of their family's financial worth. Bear in mind, I'm speaking as someone who does not have a college degree, and yet is intelligent, happy, healthy, well adjusted...

authored a book...

Not completely true. Yes, they are outliers for sure. Look at school teachers in America, most have 6+ years of education backing them up yet make less than a union construction worker or non-union plumber.

I agree every should have the opportunity to go to college, and in America, the system allows for that. You can drop out of high school and a few years later decided you want to go to college and get in. (Starts with some junior college classes and move up)

I don't beleive free education is the best deal. Look at public education in America, when things are free, people don't take them as seriously. (Visit some public high schools and watch students.)

Education comes in many forms. I like the idea of high schools moving into two tracks, one for trades (Electrician, plumbers and such) the other for those who want to go to college.


On the other end of the spectrum, they many people with college degree who earn next to nothing. They have educations and still work for bad pay. A high education doesn't mean you earn more pay, it just offers another door to enter the market with.

I also don't define education by college degree.

What specifically did Jay say that you think is less than completely true?


traddad


Feb 28, 2012, 5:11 AM
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Re: [j_ung] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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"j_ung wrote:
Thread title's a bit redundant.

...

Um...not so much. I'm sure we all know well educated people who are just down-right stupid, as well as the reverse. Sometimes a college education is a rewerd for perseverance, rather than intellect.


(This post was edited by traddad on Feb 28, 2012, 11:10 AM)


Partner cracklover


Feb 28, 2012, 9:37 AM
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Re: [j_ung] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic


scrapedape


Feb 28, 2012, 10:03 AM
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Re: [cracklover] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

Right, which is why labor economists have built up a massive literature trying to address this issue. My understanding is that the effect of education on earnings is pretty compelling, even after controlling for a lot of other factors.

There is a related issue worth considering, however: if everyone had a college education, would everyone have higher earnings? Or do higher earnings only exist because educated workers are in short supply. This appears to boil down to the human capital (education builds valuable skills) vs signalling (education identifies you as having characteristics attractive to employers) arguments for the value of education.

In a sense this is all moot, since Obama never actually said that everyone should go to college.


guangzhou


Feb 28, 2012, 6:35 PM
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Re: [cracklover] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

Agree, correlation doesn't mean causation.

I also have never seen a study that proved having an education, college degree in this case, means you'll make more money. I have also met plenty of people with advance degrees who make more money salary wise but spend that extra income trying to pay off the college loans they have because of the advance degree.

You can get a job making 30,000 USD out of high school in Manufacturing of plastic molds. Within a few year, double the pay and clear 70,000 a year before they 30. Of course, people in America don't want manufacturing jobs because they are not glamorous.

Also, what many of the stats don't say is how of those people have the job because of the degree they hold. Maybe people who have college degrees are more aggressive about moving up economically. Some have definitely earn a college degree attending night school and didn't get a raise at the job when the degree was complete, but were already making better money in their current position because of time on the job.

The bold section is simply not true. Again, teachers come to mind, and teacher are not outliers. Teacher have a minimum of a four year degree plus. Many have advance degree. A manager at McDonalds make roughly the same salary as a school teacher. In many states, the teacher makes less.


Partner j_ung


Feb 29, 2012, 4:31 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

Agree, correlation doesn't mean causation.

I also have never seen a study that proved having an education, college degree in this case, means you'll make more money. I have also met plenty of people with advance degrees who make more money salary wise but spend that extra income trying to pay off the college loans they have because of the advance degree.

You can get a job making 30,000 USD out of high school in Manufacturing of plastic molds. Within a few year, double the pay and clear 70,000 a year before they 30. Of course, people in America don't want manufacturing jobs because they are not glamorous.

Also, what many of the stats don't say is how of those people have the job because of the degree they hold. Maybe people who have college degrees are more aggressive about moving up economically. Some have definitely earn a college degree attending night school and didn't get a raise at the job when the degree was complete, but were already making better money in their current position because of time on the job.

The bold section is simply not true. Again, teachers come to mind, and teacher are not outliers. Teacher have a minimum of a four year degree plus. Many have advance degree. A manager at McDonalds make roughly the same salary as a school teacher. In many states, the teacher makes less.

Really? Never seen one? Not even one? Well, allow me to assist. Wink


chadnsc


Feb 29, 2012, 7:01 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
You can get a job making 30,000 USD out of high school in Manufacturing of plastic molds. Within a few year, double the pay and clear 70,000 a year before they 30. Of course, people in America don't want manufacturing jobs because they are not glamorous.

Bullshit.


(This post was edited by chadnsc on Feb 29, 2012, 7:01 AM)


Partner cracklover


Feb 29, 2012, 7:36 AM
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Re: [chadnsc] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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chadnsc wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
You can get a job making 30,000 USD out of high school in Manufacturing of plastic molds. Within a few year, double the pay and clear 70,000 a year before they 30. Of course, people in America don't want manufacturing jobs because they are not glamorous.

Bullshit.

Seriously. Guangzhou, you're majorly out of touch.

GO


traddad


Feb 29, 2012, 8:31 AM
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Re: [cracklover] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
You can get a job making 30,000 USD out of high school in Manufacturing of plastic molds. Within a few year, double the pay and clear 70,000 a year before they 30. Of course, people in America don't want manufacturing jobs because they are not glamorous.

Bullshit.

Seriously. Guangzhou, you're majorly out of touch.

GO

The error here is mistaking the mearly possible for the probable. Yes, it is possible to get a high paying job with just a high school education, but the probablily of that is quite low.
Just because a thing is possible doesn't mean you can hold the average person to that standard.
By this measure I should be flashing 13c.


(This post was edited by traddad on Feb 29, 2012, 8:37 AM)


veganclimber


Feb 29, 2012, 8:32 AM
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Re: [cracklover] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
chadnsc wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
You can get a job making 30,000 USD out of high school in Manufacturing of plastic molds. Within a few year, double the pay and clear 70,000 a year before they 30. Of course, people in America don't want manufacturing jobs because they are not glamorous.

Bullshit.

Seriously. Guangzhou, you're majorly out of touch.

GO

Yes. This was just a year ago:

http://www.bloomberg.com/...re-than-planned.html
In reply to:
McDonald’s and its franchisees hired 62,000 people in the U.S. after receiving more than one million applications, the Oak Brook, Illinois-based company said today in an e-mailed statement. Previously, it said it planned to hire 50,000.

One million people applied for jobs at McDonald's, and most were turned down.


scrapedape


Feb 29, 2012, 8:57 AM
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guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

I also have never seen a study that proved having an education, college degree in this case, means you'll make more money.

And you never will, because that's not the sort of thing that can be proven. The question is whether or not a preponderance of evidence supports the conclusion or not.

In reply to:

The bold section is simply not true.

Actually, it simply is true.

That doesn't mean that it is a causal relationship (you need to dig deeper to evaluate that, as many have now pointed out)...
In reply to:
Again, teachers come to mind, and teacher are not outliers. Teacher have a minimum of a four year degree plus. Many have advance degree. A manager at McDonalds make roughly the same salary as a school teacher. In many states, the teacher makes less.

... nor does it mean that it is a perfect correlation.


pinktricam


Feb 29, 2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: [scrapedape] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

I also have never seen a study that proved having an education, college degree in this case, means you'll make more money.

And you never will, because that's not the sort of thing that can be proven. The question is whether or not a preponderance of evidence supports the conclusion or not.

I believe the evidence does support the conclusion...




Partner j_ung


Feb 29, 2012, 11:00 AM
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scrapedape wrote:

And you never will, because that's not the sort of thing that can be proven. The question is whether or not a preponderance of evidence supports the conclusion or not.

And boy does it ever. As does common sense.


dr_feelgood


Feb 29, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

I also have never seen a study that proved having an education, college degree in this case, means you'll make more money.

And you never will, because that's not the sort of thing that can be proven. The question is whether or not a preponderance of evidence supports the conclusion or not.

I believe the evidence does support the conclusion...


Two firsts-
Pinky makes a statement beginning with "I believe..." that isn't completely nutterz,

Pinky makes a statement supported by factual evidence.

Weird.


traddad


Feb 29, 2012, 11:13 AM
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j_ung wrote:
scrapedape wrote:

And you never will, because that's not the sort of thing that can be proven. The question is whether or not a preponderance of evidence supports the conclusion or not.

And boy does it ever. As does common sense.

"....however some evidence..."
Remember: teach the controversy.


petsfed


Feb 29, 2012, 11:30 AM
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traddad wrote:
Just because a thing is possible doesn't mean you can hold the average person to that standard.
By this measure I should be flashing 13c.

Of course, based on the standard poor-shaming that comes from the "that's elitist!" crowd, you should probably kill yourself for not being able to climb 13c, let alone flash it.


pinktricam


Feb 29, 2012, 11:35 AM
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Re: [dr_feelgood] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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dr_feelgood wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
cracklover wrote:
j_ung wrote:
traddad wrote:
...that way you're more controlable.
Willful ignorance: The pride of the Bush(2) administration now perfected in the Tea Party.
http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/...e-push.php?ref=fpblg

I think Rick Santorum deserves a "Darwin Award".

Thread title's a bit redundant.

Back on topic...

Average lifetime salaries are absolutely and unequivocally tied to level of education, as is unemployment rate in the inverse.

Right, but correlation does not prove causation.

For example, it may be that on average, those people who have more education already possessed skills that made them more successful in the job market, such as intelligence and persistence.

BTW, not calling you dumb and lazy! , LOL!

GAngelic

I also have never seen a study that proved having an education, college degree in this case, means you'll make more money.

And you never will, because that's not the sort of thing that can be proven. The question is whether or not a preponderance of evidence supports the conclusion or not.

I believe the evidence does support the conclusion...

[image]http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.JPG[/image]

Two firsts-
Pinky makes a statement beginning with "I believe..." that isn't completely nutterz,

Pinky makes a statement supported by factual evidence.

Weird.

First of all, they're not "firsts." Please, try and keep up.


guangzhou


Feb 29, 2012, 6:38 PM
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I've given examples of people with advance college degrees who don't make more than people without college degree, so I stand by the bold isn't true.

un·e·quiv·o·cal
   [uhn-i-kwiv-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
not equivocal; unambiguous; clear; having only one possible meaning or interpretation: an unequivocal indication of assent; unequivocal proof.

Again, I think people to go to college are more likely to be self motivated and willing to improve their life. Those are the traits that will drive a person to being more successful, with or without a college degree.

Also consider how many are not working within the field they studied in college. A college degree opens a door, nothing more.

The problem I have with the above quote is that is makes people believe that once they have a college degree everything will be fine. Society says get a degree to become successful and then get upset when they still have to fight for ajob after the degree.

High school guidance counselor tell them the ebst job prospect ten years from now will be in such and such, so everyone heads in that direction instead of thinking about where people are not headed and where jobs will be with no-one applying.

I support people going to college, I believe in education, the issue I have is that so many statements make the college degree the end all be all to success.

For the last decades I've been surrounded by success ex-pats. Many were traveling in South East Asia 10, 15, or 20 years ago. Some had degrees, some didn't. They saw an opportunity and developed it. Less than 10% of these guys have a business within the area they had a background in, the one with college degrees are in completely different fields.

A college degree doesn't garantee you anything. Motivation to succeed will get you a lot further. Motivation to succeed isn't about seating around and thinking about what you want to do, it's about getting off you butt and moving forward.

Same in climbing climbing. Climbers can dream about climbing 5.13c (like above) they can read about training methods, wathc strong climber climb those grade, but until they actually physically and mentally commit themselves, they won't reach it.

Everyone has excuses on why they can and can't do it. Most revolve around time. Last I check, everyone lives in a world with a 24 hour day. We make time for what we are really interested in, and we omit the things we just find nice to have.


pinktricam


Feb 29, 2012, 6:44 PM
Post #25 of 46 (1879 views)
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 7947

Re: [guangzhou] They want you stupid and uneducated... [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
I've given examples of people with advance college degrees who don't make more than people without college degree, so I stand by the bold isn't true.

un·e·quiv·o·cal
   [uhn-i-kwiv-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
not equivocal; unambiguous; clear; having only one possible meaning or interpretation: an unequivocal indication of assent; unequivocal proof.

Again, I think people to go to college are more likely to be self motivated and willing to improve their life. Oo are the traits that will drive a person to being more successful, with or without a college degree.

Also consider how many are not working within the field they studied in college. A college degree opens a door, nothing more.

The problem I have with the above quote is that is makes people believe that once they have a college degree everything will be fine. Society says get a degree to become successful and then get upset when they still have to fight for ajob after the degree.

High school guidance counselor tell them the ebst job prospect ten years from now will be in such and such, so everyone heads in that direction instead of thinking about where people are not headed and where jobs will be with no-one applying.

I support people going to college, I believe in education, the issue I have is that so many statements make the college degree the end all be all to success.

For the last decades I've been surrounded by success ex-pats. Many were traveling in South East Asia 10, 15, or 20 years ago. Some had degrees, some didn't. They saw an opportunity and developed it. Less than 10% of these guys have a business within the area they had a background in, the one with college degrees are in completely different fields.

A college degree doesn't garantee you anything. Motivation to succeed will get you a lot further. Motivation to succeed isn't about seating around and thinking about what you want to do, it's about getting off you butt and moving forward.

Same in climbing climbing. Climbers can dream about climbing 5.13c (like above) they can read about training methods, wathc strong climber climb those grade, but until they actually physically and mentally commit themselves, they won't reach it.

Everyone has excuses on why they can and can't do it. Most revolve around time. Last I check, everyone lives in a world with a 24 hour day. We make time for what we are really interested in, and we omit the things we just find nice to have.

Shit, I'm not reading all that!

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