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reuters: The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country
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squierbypetzl
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Mar 4, 2012, 7:34 PM
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reuters: The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country
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maybe the Bourne trilogy writers knew something we didn't?

http://www.reuters.com/...dUSTRE82402420120305


Dangerous times. As a lawyer, Obama had better know he's wading/getting lulled into treacherous waters.


(This post was edited by squierbypetzl on Mar 4, 2012, 11:29 PM)


guangzhou


Mar 4, 2012, 10:32 PM
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Re: [squierbypetzl] The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country [In reply to]
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Pretty sure this would be covered under treason.


scrapedape


Mar 5, 2012, 7:04 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Pretty sure this would be covered under treason.

I would assume so, too.

But I don't think the question here is about whether the aggression against the US is legal or not. I think it is more about the appropriate means to deal with that aggression. If you don't have someone in custody, it's kind of hard to put them on trial for treason.

To me, the disturbing part about the targeted assassination program has not been that they are killing bad people, but about how the program has operated more or less outside the rule of law. If they are planning to articulate more clearly the process, criteria, and decisionmakers involved with putting someone on the assassination list, then that would seem to me to be a positive move. Including judicial oversight would seem to be a more positive move.


Partner j_ung


Mar 5, 2012, 11:03 AM
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Re: [scrapedape] The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country [In reply to]
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I probably trust the Obama administration on this more than I trusted, say, the Bush administration. But it won't always be Obama on the trigger, and I would hope that Republicans feel the same way but vice versa. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, this makes me extremely uncomfortable, as it should all of us.


traddad


Mar 5, 2012, 12:15 PM
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Re: [j_ung] The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
I probably trust the Obama administration on this more than I trusted, say, the Bush administration. But it won't always be Obama on the trigger, and I would hope that Republicans feel the same way but vice versa. So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, this makes me extremely uncomfortable, as it should all of us.

Agreed....but then: If "war is diplomacy by other means", covert assinations is war by other means.
Do you really think that, even if this is repudiated, it won't happen?


squierbypetzl
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Mar 5, 2012, 1:12 PM
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Re: [scrapedape] The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country [In reply to]
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scrapedape wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Pretty sure this would be covered under treason.

I would assume so, too.

But I don't think the question here is about whether the aggression against the US is legal or not. I think it is more about the appropriate means to deal with that aggression. If you don't have someone in custody, it's kind of hard to put them on trial for treason.

To me, the disturbing part about the targeted assassination program has not been that they are killing bad people, but about how the program has operated more or less outside the rule of law. If they are planning to articulate more clearly the process, criteria, and decisionmakers involved with putting someone on the assassination list, then that would seem to me to be a positive move. Including judicial oversight would seem to be a more positive move.

Key word here is "trial". Whatever the pretext, the issue is the summary execution of American citizens overseas (i.e., probably breaking the law in whatever country that person in currently in) by a dependency of the executive branch of the federal government, not only without a trial or even prior notice, but without any intervention from the judiciary.

Killing somebody in combat is one thing; their nationality is irrelevant if they've got a rifle pointed at you. Targeted killings, however, are more than a step removed from that hypothesis. Basically, the federal government (likely the Armed Forces and/or intelligence agencies) would have the legal power to kill Americans without the need to take them before a court of law and prove them guilty, if they can establish a likelyhood of them engaging in terrorist activities (economic and financial terrorism are things, are those included too?).

This pseudo-legal precept (in that it hasn't been established) and the precedent it sets both walk a very, very thin ledge. I have no problem with killing real, actual terrorists. I do have a problem with giving any single group of (unelected, btw) people carte blanche to assassinate members of the same group they purport to protect (i.e., Americans).

How many people are still detained on terrorism charges? After years and they haven't been able to make the charges stick. It's likely that at least 1 or 2 of the detainees are innocent, if not more. That proves that the fact finding process and the "conviction" process are defective.


squierbypetzl
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Mar 5, 2012, 1:25 PM
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Re: [traddad] The Obama admin. plans to outline how U.S. laws empower the govt. to kill Americans overseas who engage in terrorism against their home country [In reply to]
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traddad wrote:
Agreed....but then: If "war is diplomacy by other means", covert assinations is war by other means.

War is a continuation of politics by other means. - Clausewitz

Diplomacy is the art of saying "nice doggy" until you find a rock. - Will Rogers

In reply to:
Do you really think that, even if this is repudiated, it won't happen?

I'm sorry but using this statement to make the point you're trying to make, is ridiculous.

Theoretically, if it's illegal, no, it should not happen. Laws are broken and illegal activies occur all the time, most assuredly, but that is so not the same thing as legitimizing and legalizing those activities. In layman's terms, how does the prospect of being assassinated by a government (knock wood) make you feel? How do you feel after I tell you that your family probably wouldn't find out the truth (cuz of national security concerns), and in the case that you were completely innocent, said secrecy would impede them from suiing and receiving some form of compensation for your undue death?

If they're going to do this, it will need to be a microsurgical piece of legal work, versed so that even a 5 year old could plainly understand. Any vagueries will only lead to tragedy for, somebody, who knows who.


(This post was edited by squierbypetzl on Mar 5, 2012, 1:28 PM)


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