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williams122
Mar 7, 2012, 4:01 PM
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Hi all - first post from an older noob - go easy...
I've had a nagging question as I'm reading up on top rope anchors. I've got a couple crags nearby with plenty of bolted TR routes - nothing over 60 feet. Is it EARNEST to (first anchor myself at the top of the cliff) simply lean over the edge of the cliff, reach down to the bolts and setup a dogbone with two locking biners on each end, clipping both into each bolt and running my rope through the bottom biners? It seems...too easy. There's other routes there that would require building an anchor to climb, but I'm itching to get on some real rock sooner than later (I love bouldering on the real stuff) but feel I need some more instruction on building before trusting my life to my work. But these bolts seems pretty straight forward. Assuming the bolts are in good condition, isn't that pretty solid? Thanks in advance!
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kennoyce
Mar 7, 2012, 4:08 PM
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williams122 wrote: Hi all - first post from an older noob - go easy... I've had a nagging question as I'm reading up on top rope anchors. I've got a couple crags nearby with plenty of bolted TR routes - nothing over 60 feet. Is it EARNEST to (first anchor myself at the top of the cliff) simply lean over the edge of the cliff, reach down to the bolts and setup a dogbone with two locking biners on each end, clipping both into each bolt and running my rope through the bottom biners? It seems...too easy. There's other routes there that would require building an anchor to climb, but I'm itching to get on some real rock sooner than later (I love bouldering on the real stuff) but feel I need some more instruction on building before trusting my life to my work. But these bolts seems pretty straight forward. Assuming the bolts are in good condition, isn't that pretty solid? Thanks in advance!
There is WAY to much analysis on TR anchors on RC.com. if you have 2 bolts on the face of the rock (not on the top where the rope would run over the edge), all you need to do is clip the bolts with two draws. Most people who lead climb don't even use locking biners on either end of the draws, and I've never heard of a single failure happening. If it makes you feel safer go ahead and use lockers. Personally, I wouldn't worry about it.
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sungam
Mar 7, 2012, 4:09 PM
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As long as the bolts are sold and the draws don't end up at a funny angle it sounds fine. Many people Tr off two draws without the lockers.
There is a thread somewhere around where everyone was laffing at people who made overly complicated anchors where two draws would have been not only fine, but better. When things start to get complicated mistakes become a factor. Keep it simple :)
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edge
Mar 7, 2012, 4:12 PM
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Assuming two bolts in good condition for the anchor, one quickdraw in each secured with locking biners on both ends is more than adequate. Rotate one of the lockers so that the gates are opposite and the screwlock mechanisms don't rub against each other. Like you said, make sure to anchor yourself with little to no slack before reaching over the edge.
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zhaupin
Mar 7, 2012, 5:14 PM
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Noob followup:
Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?
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williams122
Mar 7, 2012, 5:29 PM
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Good stuff folks - I appreciate your taking the time to answer such a simple question. I like simple setups - less to go wrong... Yes the bolts are on the face, so there shouldn't be any problem with the rope running over an edge. I probably will go with lockers just for peace of mind - you gotta remember for us new folks, "the void beneath" is still a pretty undeniable sensation...part of the enjoyment, too, but I still drop the F bomb in front of my fiance' every now and then when I slip off a hold in the gym 40 feet off the floor - when there's rocks down there I can only imagine what I'll say 
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lena_chita
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Mar 7, 2012, 6:10 PM
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zhaupin wrote: Noob followup: Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?
In most 2-bolt bolted anchors, the two bolts are no more than a foot apart. Assuming that each quickdraw is about 12 inches (which is pretty short), the V angle is ~60 degrees, which translates into the force on each anchor being ~15% greater than the pulling force.
In reality, on many sport climbs there would be quicklinks or chains on the bolted anchors, so the V angle is quite a bit less than 60degrees even with 12 inch quickdraws.
Not a big deal in TR situation. And of course you can further improve things by using longer quickdraws at your anchor point, if you are concerned.
(This post was edited by lena_chita on Mar 7, 2012, 6:11 PM)
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olderic
Mar 7, 2012, 7:10 PM
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zhaupin wrote: Noob followup: Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?
Search for "American Death Triangle" - then decide.
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sungam
Mar 7, 2012, 7:27 PM
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zhaupin wrote: Noob followup: Are there concerns about the multiplication of force when using something as short as a quick draw to clip in (particularly if the bolts are spaced far apart)? The angle of the "V" created when clipping into TR bolts has a lot to do with how much the force is multiplied on each bolt when the system is loaded. Are the fall factors when TR'ing negligible enough for this to not be an issue?
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zhaupin
Mar 7, 2012, 7:31 PM
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Interesting thing is -- and I'll double check this when I get home -- what I understand to be the 'American Death Triangle' is actually suggested as an anchor configuration in my edition of Freedom of the Hills.
I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to repeated noob questions. Everyone starts somewhere I guess!
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marc801
Mar 7, 2012, 7:47 PM
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This is all you need:
If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary.
Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping:
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kennoyce
Mar 7, 2012, 8:53 PM
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marc801 wrote: This is all you need: [image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image] If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary. Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping: [image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image]
Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!
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jt512
Mar 7, 2012, 8:58 PM
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kennoyce wrote: marc801 wrote: This is all you need: [image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image] If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary. Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping: [image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image] Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out!
I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup?
Jay
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kennoyce
Mar 7, 2012, 9:07 PM
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jt512 wrote: kennoyce wrote: marc801 wrote: This is all you need: [image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image] If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary. Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping: [image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image] Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out! I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup? Jay
Jay,
it's only great if you are taking a group of people toproping at an area that isn't accessable from the top and you don't have anyone else who would feel comfortable cleaning the anchor. You as the leader rig this setup so that you aren't TRing through the chains, then the last climber simply takes off the two biners before being lowered, and doesn't have to untie to clean the anchors.
This isn't a use everyday kind of thing, but for taking groups out to TR (which I do more often then I would like), I think this would be nice.
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sungam
Mar 7, 2012, 9:36 PM
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jt512 wrote: kennoyce wrote: marc801 wrote: This is all you need: [image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image] If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary. Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping: [image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image] Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out! I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup? Jay
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jt512
Mar 7, 2012, 9:42 PM
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kennoyce wrote: jt512 wrote: kennoyce wrote: marc801 wrote: This is all you need: [image]http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/mawear/mawear0511/mawear051100036/275199-rock-climbing-anchors.jpg[/image] If you like, you can use locking biners instead, but they're really not necessary. Sometimes you don't need the slings. This is even pre-rigged for lowering the last person but not putting additional wear on the bottom links from top roping: [image]http://www.gunks.com/images/climb/articles/bolts_fig1.jpg[/image] Wow, I like the idea of that second photo, at first I thought what is the point of that, someone must be a major safety nazzi, but then I realized what it was for and thought about all of those routes that I have had to lead, then re-TR to clean the anchors when I'm climbing with noobs and realized that I need to try that out! I guess I'm still in the WTF? camp. What is so great about that setup? Jay Jay, it's only great if you are taking a group of people toproping at an area that isn't accessable from the top and you don't have anyone else who would feel comfortable cleaning the anchor. You as the leader rig this setup so that you aren't TRing through the chains, then the last climber simply takes off the two biners before being lowered, and doesn't have to untie to clean the anchors.
Got it.
Jay
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Rmsyll2
Mar 8, 2012, 3:05 AM
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"It seems...too easy."
Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular.
To see what others are using for more normal TR rim anchors, take some time at http://climbpilotnc.us/RiggingGalleries.htm. When you can decipher what system was intended, and begin to see some aspects you would not do or would want to do, you will be much better able to do rigging than many of the people who made those--none of whom had any difficulties with the rigging no matter what it amounted to.
Speaking of difficulties, the shape of the carabiners used in 'draws can cause a constriction on the rope that increases with load and may increase with decreased angle. The ones in Marc's photo are not showing that, but the straight-gate pair would have. I have belayed with such an opposed pair, and there can be noticeable rope friction and drag. It would bother me, but has not bothered the Sport climbers on millions of ascents.
.
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jt512
Mar 8, 2012, 3:23 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: "It seems...too easy." Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular. To see what others are using for more normal TR rim anchors, take some time at http://climbpilotnc.us/RiggingGalleries.htm. When you can decipher what system was intended, and begin to see some aspects you would not do or would want to do, you will be much better able to do rigging than many of the people who made those--none of whom had any difficulties with the rigging no matter what it amounted to. Speaking of difficulties, the shape of the carabiners used in 'draws can cause a constriction on the rope that increases with load and may increase with decreased angle. The ones in Marc's photo are not showing that, but the straight-gate pair would have. I have belayed with such an opposed pair, and there can be noticeable rope friction and drag. It would bother me, but has not bothered the Sport climbers on millions of ascents. .
Rmsyll2, while experienced climbers are apt to find your posts humorous, you are only confusing the beginners you are trying to reach.
I hate to say it, but you really need to put a lid on it.
Jay
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Rmsyll2
Mar 8, 2012, 3:24 AM
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The photo of quick-draws on face anchors shows them clipped into the rings. I would too; but there are people who think that should not be done, no metal should be put on the rings, only a rope that is only used for two-strand rappel, with any carabiners only in the hangers. [yawn]
The other photo looks so clever, except for the angle of the carabiners, that I was truly disappointed to realize that rigging it still requires clipping in to set the carabiners and untying to put the rope through the q'links. The matter then resolves to when you'd rather do that, and what makes good TR rigging for group use.
.
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redonkulus
Mar 8, 2012, 3:45 AM
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Rmsyll2 wrote: The photo of quick-draws on face anchors shows them clipped into the rings. I would too; but there are people who think that should not be done, no metal should be put on the rings, only a rope that is only used for two-strand rappel, with any carabiners only in the hangers. [yawn] The other photo looks so clever, except for the angle of the carabiners, that I was truly disappointed to realize that rigging it still requires clipping in to set the carabiners and untying to put the rope through the q'links. The matter then resolves to when you'd rather do that, and what makes good TR rigging for group use. .
Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.
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bearbreeder
Mar 8, 2012, 6:03 AM
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redonkulus wrote: Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit.
there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe
besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Mar 8, 2012, 6:05 AM)
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csproul
Mar 8, 2012, 12:23 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: redonkulus wrote: Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit. there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 8, 2012, 1:43 PM
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jt512 wrote: I hate to say it, but you really need to put a lid on it. Jay
Who are you and what have you done with Jay? 
Josh
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redonkulus
Mar 8, 2012, 1:50 PM
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csproul wrote: bearbreeder wrote: redonkulus wrote: Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit. there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ... I'm not sure I understand your description of the accident. THe method mentioned above (by redonkulus) requires only a few more feet of rope as compared to untying/threading/retying. So if the climber came off the end of the rope, it should have only been a few feet off of the ground. This was enough for a evac? I guess it is possible if the landing was bad enough. I still think that the method mentioned by redonkulus is generally superior if the rings are big enough to accept a bight of rope. There are exceptions, of course.
Yeah, there's maybe been once or twice when I couldn't feed a bight through the rings. Still, to continue my irate tangent, always just clip yourself in to both bolts, whether you're untying or not. Takes like 4 extra seconds, and an extra sling or QD or something. Not too hard. I can't understand why I see so many people not do this.
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redonkulus
Mar 8, 2012, 2:00 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: redonkulus wrote: Jesus christ, you people need to learn to feed a bight of rope through the rap rings/quicklinks and tie a figure 8 on a bight, locking biner to belay loop, untie original knot, lower. You're never off belay this way. Plus if the jackasses who only go in direct on one anchor bolt did this, they wouldn't die if that bolt failed while they were completely untied from the rope. Makes my soul hurt to watch that shit. there was an accident in skaha last year where a girl did exactly that ... the problem is that the climb was exactly the length of the rope with stretch, and with the extra rope she pulled through the rope was too short and ran through the ATC ... she had to me evaced out i believe besides not all chains or links are wide enough to take a bight of thicker ropes ...
She very well could have fallen and gotten hurt had she untied and done it the other way. It's always good practice to tie a knot in the end of the rope for a route that you KNOW will be a real rope stretcher. If they didn't know that the rope would be about 5 feet too short for the route with the bight cleaning method, they very likely would have made the same mistake had the rope been 5 feet too short for the route with the other method of cleaning.
It all comes down to taking a few extra, small, safety cautions. Like double checking your knot, belayer, and harness before you start up a route. If the route is obviously longer than like 70 ft, tie a knot in the end of the rope. If you're already at the anchors, clips into both of them. If you can manage it, feed a bight through the rings so you aren't ever off belay.
Of course, you can always just rap, which makes that whole thing null and void. It just got ingrained in me in Thailand, where it was entirely possible that both anchor bolts could fail, and I'd like to have at least the hope that one of the bolts I clipped would save me. 
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