I'm not sure I understand your description of the accident. THe method mentioned above (by redonkulus) requires only a few more feet of rope as compared to untying/threading/retying. So if the climber came off the end of the rope, it should have only been a few feet off of the ground. This was enough for a evac? I guess it is possible if the landing was bad enough. I still think that the method mentioned by redonkulus is generally superior if the rings are big enough to accept a bight of rope. There are exceptions, of course.

"It seems...too easy."

Easy is the point. Face anchors are for lead routes, and either Trad or Sport would have something for quick-draws as standard equipment. Why you have any, before having what you need for the TR you are doing, you didn't say. If that is all you do have for rigging, you will be only poaching lead routes. Where I climb, that would make you less than popular.

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I'm not sure why you think anyone is entitled to any greater rights over a climb as a 'leader' than anyone less experienced. Let me clarify, a TR climber, sport leader, trad leader and aid climber all have equal rights to use outdoor public space.

Hogging routes for half the day is pretty inconsiderate but setting up a TR on chains certainly doesn't take long.

That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery. I'm doing a LOT of reading and talking to climbers before heading out. I'll def have more than just a couple draws which I only would take for a quick TR setup, and only if I'm not in the way. In addition I'll be taking a 15 and 30 foot section of 11mm static line, some 1 inch tubular webbing for slinging tress if need be, some assorted pre-sewn slings for extensions, an extra ATC and a couple 6mm loops for an autoblock and/or fench prussik to back me up if an emergency rap is required (yeah I know I'm just TRing, but what if my partner passes out, is chased by a bear or just up and decides to go home and leave my ass etc...) and of course a bunch of biners, mostly locking. I'll make sure we're not preventing any sport or trad folks from doing their thing - not to mention the best I can climb right now is 5.6-5.7, so I doubt I'll be on any routes experienced climbers are on... I appreciate all the help y'all...

That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Just as I predicted.

Jay

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

What a small, petty life you must have to take such pride in a perceived minor victory in a forum post.

Grow up.

Jay doesn't exactly seem to be going for a victory here. Instead, he's lamenting the fact that no-nothing climbers are spreading their misinformed practices to new members.

The purpose of the beginner's forum is to provide safe, useful knowledge to those members entering our sport. The gallery linked upthread is a death trap. Jay is right to call it out and should be backed by all competent climbers and the moderation staff.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

That's good stuff Rmsyll2, thanks. I especially like the link to the anchor gallery.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

Yes, it is unfortunate. But new climbers can often identify with and "understand" the concerns of other new climbers better than they identify with and understand experienced climbers and their knowledge.

Seriously. What a bummer when a n00b come here with a decent beginner question, gets a bunch of good answers, and one or two that are off the wall. And which one does he listen to and respond to? The one that's off the wall.

I've got no dog in this fight, but I've been there before. It makes you not want to answer people's questions if you have real knowledge on the subject, because taking the time to be thoughtful when someone's just going to blow you off and pay attention to the idiot really sucks.

GO

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

The issue, of course, is that most new climbers are identifying with the lowest common denominator. I feel strongly that the moderation is insufficient for the beginner's forum. This opens this forum up to the need for posters like Jay to rip into the people spewing nonsense.

We can't change the noobs. No way to avoid the fact that we're always going to have the very best info ignored in favor of the worst. I only suggest that experienced climbers take the time to call this info what it is.

No two ways about it, the light touch isn't working with some posters. I don't advocate creating an environment that is so caustic that it has to be moderated, as the beginner's forum has been in the past, but I do advocate calling people out for being incompetent.

When I did exactly that in another thread, I was accused by the n00b in question of leading an internet lynch mob against said n00b, engaging in a personal attack, and being biased against beginners.

This is exactly when the moderation team would need to step in and moderate!

The moderators here tend to side with the n00b. This is the only website I know where it's considered more acceptable to start a new thread asking the same question that's already on the front page twice than it is to suggest to the n00b that he read the other two threads.

Jay

Good lord, y'all - As the OP let me take a few minutes now that I have some time this Friday night and try and explain, and then I'll more than likely just do my thing and not spend too much more time here. Hopefully what I say can be constructive.

So first off, I should point out that I made the original post quickly - I am working most of the time during the day, not trolling the internet for hours on end. I was thinking about climbing during my work day and thought I would just hit rockclimbing.com real quick and throw my question out. I don't have time to sift through all the posts - I scanned them quickly and didn't see the other posts that addressed my question - okay my bad.

Be that as it may, why not just ignore the post? It's not as if you are a captive audience. If it upsets you to read redundant beginner stuff, guess what, you don't have to click on that section! I mean, don't read the beginner's forum if you don't want to read the same simple questions, because honestly we beginners have a lot of the same simple questions, and for an activity with the inherent dangers of climbing, I would think you would understand the need for an new individual to basically ask, "I know you said it once before, but are you sure in MY CASE?"

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info - I'm not going to run out to the crag and try to set up an anchor based on a picture. I am indeed doing a lot of reading, and will most importantly be taking a certified class in anchor building prior to heading out the first time to the rocks. So no worries there, but as I said the whole experience of feeling laughed at was not fun.

So I guess the knife cuts both ways - I could have saved myself this turmoil by not posting in the first place, or you could have saved yourselves the turmoil by either not replying, or choosing to handle the question respectfully and with the patience that a mentor should have for a student. But it appears this is just another internet forum like many of the photo sites I'm on, where squabbling and the dynamics of the forum (and not the forum's content) seem to drown out the truly helpful people.

Hope that helps to clarify my position, and I know there's some good folks out there climbing - I've met a few of them - so, no offense to any of you. I'm still very much looking forward to continuing to learn to climb and not die in the process, and would just say that if you truly want a beginner's forum here, perhaps it should be locked down so that only a few experienced, patient, perhaps certified people are moderating and answering questions, and to the rest it's read only - just an idea. Have a great night folks - no hard feelings.

To put it another way, I am obviously new to climbing, but an expert photographer and I spend a good deal of time on several other photos forums that include what seem to me to be extremely elementary posts about D-76 versus Rodinal, f-stops, the merits of stand development versus standard agitation and so on... (you know, easy stuff) so I know what you mean when you the expert say you get tired of seeing the same questions. Again, I must say that it is actually on YOU to not subject yourself to reading the posts that seem to fill you with such self righteous irritation.

As far as taking the bad advice on anchors, because I am new I really am too ignorant of the inside joke going around (which frankly made me feel fairly humiliated, thanks very much) to understand what is wrong with a collection of anchor pictures. I stand by my comment that it was good to see real clear pictures of what actual people are doing out there at the crag - the good, the bad and the ugly. I simply thanked the dude for the info - I didn't condone the info -.