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veganclimber


Mar 14, 2012, 1:22 PM
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Stand Your Ground = License to Kill
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...artin_n_1340358.html

So here's the cliff notes version of the story:

George Zimmerman is a community watch captain in a gated community in Florida. He sees a black teenager walking down the street and calls to report a "suspicious person". The police tell him to stay in his car, as a cop is on the way. He gets out of his car and confronts the teenager. Zimmerman winds up shooting the kid, killing him. Kid was unarmed by the way.

Now this guy has had several complaints about him in the past for aggressive behavior. According to the lawyer:

In reply to:
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

The guy has not been arrested. Reason:

In reply to:
“In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.”

What the fuck? If you claim self defense the prosecutor has to prove that it wasn't? How is that ever possible if there are no witnesses? In this particular case the kid was walking down the street minding his own business. The wannabe cop confronts him and then winds up shooting him in self defense?

I've heard several other cases of this "Stand Your Ground" law that allows you to kill anybody you think is threatening you. This country is just getting more fucked up every day it seems.


squierbypetzl
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Mar 14, 2012, 8:40 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Stand Your Ground = License to Kill [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...artin_n_1340358.html

So here's the cliff notes version of the story:

George Zimmerman is a community watch captain in a gated community in Florida. He sees a black teenager walking down the street and calls to report a "suspicious person". The police tell him to stay in his car, as a cop is on the way. He gets out of his car and confronts the teenager. Zimmerman winds up shooting the kid, killing him. Kid was unarmed by the way.

Now this guy has had several complaints about him in the past for aggressive behavior. According to the lawyer:

In reply to:
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

The guy has not been arrested. Reason:

In reply to:
“In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.”

What the fuck? If you claim self defense the prosecutor has to prove that it wasn't? How is that ever possible if there are no witnesses? In this particular case the kid was walking down the street minding his own business. The wannabe cop confronts him and then winds up shooting him in self defense?

I've heard several other cases of this "Stand Your Ground" law that allows you to kill anybody you think is threatening you. This country is just getting more fucked up every day it seems.

Florida. There's really no word that can fully encompass the level of stupid there.

Hopefully he'll wind up in the chair (wonder if he'll still agree with the death sentence when he's on the list).


saint_john


Mar 16, 2012, 10:23 AM
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I lose more faith in humanity every day.


squierbypetzl
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Mar 16, 2012, 12:34 PM
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saint_john wrote:
I lose more faith in humanity every day.

You shouldn't. To the contrary, it seems that stupidity comes perfectly natural to humans, so we've actually come a really long way.


pinktricam


Mar 17, 2012, 7:15 AM
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squierbypetzl wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...artin_n_1340358.html

So here's the cliff notes version of the story:

George Zimmerman is a community watch captain in a gated community in Florida. He sees a black teenager walking down the street and calls to report a "suspicious person". The police tell him to stay in his car, as a cop is on the way. He gets out of his car and confronts the teenager. Zimmerman winds up shooting the kid, killing him. Kid was unarmed by the way.

Now this guy has had several complaints about him in the past for aggressive behavior. According to the lawyer:

In reply to:
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

The guy has not been arrested. Reason:

In reply to:
“In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.”

What the fuck? If you claim self defense the prosecutor has to prove that it wasn't? How is that ever possible if there are no witnesses? In this particular case the kid was walking down the street minding his own business. The wannabe cop confronts him and then winds up shooting him in self defense?

I've heard several other cases of this "Stand Your Ground" law that allows you to kill anybody you think is threatening you. This country is just getting more fucked up every day it seems.

Florida. There's really no word that can fully encompass the level of stupid there.

How do you really feel?

squierbypetzl wrote:
Hopefully he'll wind up in the chair (wonder if he'll still agree with the death sentence when he's on the list).

Unfortunately, if he is ever charged, it can only be with manslaughter.


squierbypetzl
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Mar 17, 2012, 2:42 PM
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Re: [pinktricam] Stand Your Ground = License to Kill [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
How do you really feel?

Sorry 'bout that but your state has got an inordinate amount of, not just loonies, but pro-active loonies with a mistaken understanding of which side of the law they're on.


pinktricam wrote:
squierbypetzl wrote:
Hopefully he'll wind up in the chair (wonder if he'll still agree with the death sentence when he's on the list).

Unfortunately, if he is ever charged, it can only be with manslaughter.

1) Let's hope a thorough investigation bring all the facts to light, and lets a jury decide.

2) Manslaughter? I really doubt that. If you mean that pragmatically that's the only way to make the charges stick before a jury, well I don't know the jury pool well enough. Legally, and admitedly only based on what I read in the HP report, he could be charged with 1st degree homicide, aggravated by race (if there is such a thing under Florida law). But only manslaughter? It'll be a sad day for justice* if that's what happens.

* justice in the legal and humanitarian sense.

The situation is fucked up, PTC. If a 17yr old unarmed white male had been shot dead 100 ft away from his home by a black "neighborhood watch captain" ("" because he does a shit job if he can't recognize his own fcking neighbors; or maybe that had nothing to do with this killing) you'd see all hell breaking loose.

The PD is covering up for this guy, under a vague pretext of protecting gun owner's rights. That's b.s. and we all know it. If somebody is truly for responsible gun ownership, the 1st thing they'd want was an immediate, transparent investigation into the case.


pinktricam


Mar 17, 2012, 2:47 PM
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Re: [squierbypetzl] Stand Your Ground = License to Kill [In reply to]
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You're "preachin' to the choir," I agree that the guy was a racsist, irresponsible, gun toting asshole, but the attorney general will file (if they file) charges that they believe they can win within a court of law.




Edited to add: I read that the FBI may come in for an objective investigation and that the majority of Sanford's population, both black and white believe there's been a great miscarriage of justice....this story aint over.


(This post was edited by pinktricam on Mar 17, 2012, 2:52 PM)


pinktricam


Mar 17, 2012, 4:12 PM
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squierbypetzl wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
How do you really feel?

Sorry 'bout that but your state has got an inordinate amount of, not just loonies, but pro-active loonies with a mistaken understanding of which side of the law they're on.

Really, you think there are more gun toting loonies in FL than the northern states of Mexico?


squierbypetzl
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Mar 17, 2012, 5:15 PM
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pinktricam wrote:
squierbypetzl wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
How do you really feel?

Sorry 'bout that but your state has got an inordinate amount of, not just loonies, but pro-active loonies with a mistaken understanding of which side of the law they're on.

Really, you think there are more gun toting loonies in FL than the northern states of Mexico?

Haha, touché. In all honesty, I tried to add that but couldn't find the words, the reason being that the gun toting loonies in Mexico are criminals almost 100% of the time, while in the US they can be otherwise law-abiding citizens who legally guns but have grave misconceptions about the use they can legally give to their weapons.

And no. The things that happen in northern Mexico are mostly done by insane, drug-addicted, sociopathic criminals. Because of the scale, there's no doubt it's worse.


Partner rrrADAM


Mar 18, 2012, 5:33 AM
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Re: [squierbypetzl] Stand Your Ground = License to Kill [In reply to]
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squierbypetzl wrote:
Florida. There's really no word that can fully encompass the level of stupid there.

Well, "pinktricam" used to come pretty close, but he seems to be becoming more enlightened over the years.


(This post was edited by rrrADAM on Mar 18, 2012, 5:37 AM)


roguecrimson


Mar 18, 2012, 3:03 PM
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pinktricam wrote:
squierbypetzl wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
How do you really feel?

Sorry 'bout that but your state has got an inordinate amount of, not just loonies, but pro-active loonies with a mistaken understanding of which side of the law they're on.

Really, you think there are more gun toting loonies in FL than the northern states of Mexico?


Are you related to Philip Markoff-(aka craigs list killer)?

are you trying to intimidate women here?


(This post was edited by roguecrimson on Mar 20, 2012, 4:10 PM)


petsfed


Mar 18, 2012, 5:13 PM
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Well, the gun-toting loonies in Mexico do receive a paycheck for their work, whereas those in Florida do it for free. Do you know what they call it when a valuable service is given away free of charge? Socialism.

By that standard, the gun toting loonies in Florida are clearly the greater threat to America.


pinktricam


Mar 18, 2012, 11:52 PM
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petsfed wrote:
By that standard, the gun toting loonies in Florida are clearly the greater threat to America.

I thought something smelled fishy about your claim. I simple online search clearly shows that Florida gun violence statistics fall right in the middle of all fifty states. Apparently "the greater threat to America" (which is kind of a silly way of putting it anyway) is Louisiana:

Gun violence by state


pinktricam


Mar 19, 2012, 4:40 AM
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squierbypetzl wrote:
The things that happen in northern Mexico are mostly done by insane, drug-addicted, sociopathic criminals. Because of the scale, there's no doubt it's worse.

And those criminals were illegally and irresponsibly supplied with thousands of firearms by an insanely hypocritical and equally corrupt US AG Eric Holder in a misled attempt to create a false narrative and promote the anti-gun agenda of the current administration.

Check out this 1995 speech Holder gave to advance his anti-gun efforts in Washington: Holder 1995: We Must 'Brainwash' People Against Guns

I wonder how the surviving families and friends of the innocent victims of drug cartel violence feel about Holder and his "genius" idea of Operation Fast and Furious.

It sickens me that impeachment proceedings haven't already begun against the fecking asshole. He is as guilty of the deaths of innocent Mexicans as Cardenas, Guzman, Costilla, et al...


petsfed


Mar 19, 2012, 11:40 AM
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'twas a joke made at the expense of gun nuts who are also paranoid about communism.

Honestly though, murders committed by undiagnosed/unrecognized psychopaths is the price we pay for otherwise very easy access to firearms.


squierbypetzl
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Mar 19, 2012, 4:59 PM
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I don't have the means to disagree with your assessment, PTC. The thing is, I don't believe the main objective of F&F et al was to promote an anti-gun agenda in the US. I think that regional destabilization was the original objective, and that somewhere along the planning stage they realized that they could have a hack at domestic gun policy with the same swing of the axe.

I'm not a fan of government interference (if only because of the business inefficiency of bureaucracy) but I also don't agree with the loopholes that are allowing cartels and criminals to purchase military cal weaponry in the lower 48 and smuggle it across the border. There has to be a way to legally plug the hole that leaks guns to criminals in Mexico, while respecting the 2nd Am. Pro-gun groups should recognize that this is as the core of the "problem", and not allow themselves to be distracted by anti-gun conspiracy theories.


(This post was edited by squierbypetzl on Mar 20, 2012, 12:03 PM)


donwanadi


Mar 20, 2012, 6:53 AM
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veganclimber wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...artin_n_1340358.html

So here's the cliff notes version of the story:

George Zimmerman is a community watch captain in a gated community in Florida. He sees a black teenager walking down the street and calls to report a "suspicious person". The police tell him to stay in his car, as a cop is on the way. He gets out of his car and confronts the teenager. Zimmerman winds up shooting the kid, killing him. Kid was unarmed by the way.

Now this guy has had several complaints about him in the past for aggressive behavior. According to the lawyer:

In reply to:
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

The guy has not been arrested. Reason:

In reply to:
“In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.”

What the fuck? If you claim self defense the prosecutor has to prove that it wasn't? How is that ever possible if there are no witnesses? In this particular case the kid was walking down the street minding his own business. The wannabe cop confronts him and then winds up shooting him in self defense?

I've heard several other cases of this "Stand Your Ground" law that allows you to kill anybody you think is threatening you. This country is just getting more fucked up every day it seems.

What the fuck? People are innocent until proven guilty. They will arrest him when they gather enough evidence to do so. Most likely he will be charged with manslaughter based on the disproportionate response to an unarmed man. If it's true that he used racial slurs in the 911 recording, than MAYBE they will pursue 2nd degree murder.


petsfed


Mar 20, 2012, 8:04 AM
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The way the Florida law is written, the judge can decide its self-defense before jury selection even begins. Thus, this may never go to trial.

Innocent until proven guilty, sure, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind who did the killing here, so the reason he hasn't been arrested is because the DA can't get a judge who wants to try him. Unfortunately, it will take a juried trial to determine if a crime has occurred, but all it takes is a single judge to decide a crime hasn't (for self-defense incidents in Florida) for a murderer to walk free. And since the law passed some 7 years ago, this has happened several times.


styndall


Mar 20, 2012, 8:16 AM
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petsfed wrote:
The way the Florida law is written, the judge can decide its self-defense before jury selection even begins. Thus, this may never go to trial.

Innocent until proven guilty, sure, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind who did the killing here, so the reason he hasn't been arrested is because the DA can't get a judge who wants to try him. Unfortunately, it will take a juried trial to determine if a crime has occurred, but all it takes is a single judge to decide a crime hasn't (for self-defense incidents in Florida) for a murderer to walk free. And since the law passed some 7 years ago, this has happened several times.

It's more that the police haven't arrested the guy, probably because of long-standing prejudice. They should have arrested him at the scene, and they can any time. There's no need for a judge or a DA to be involved with an initial arrest.


chadnsc


Mar 20, 2012, 9:27 AM
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styndall wrote:
petsfed wrote:
The way the Florida law is written, the judge can decide its self-defense before jury selection even begins. Thus, this may never go to trial.

Innocent until proven guilty, sure, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind who did the killing here, so the reason he hasn't been arrested is because the DA can't get a judge who wants to try him. Unfortunately, it will take a juried trial to determine if a crime has occurred, but all it takes is a single judge to decide a crime hasn't (for self-defense incidents in Florida) for a murderer to walk free. And since the law passed some 7 years ago, this has happened several times.

It's more that the police haven't arrested the guy, probably because of long-standing prejudice. They should have arrested him at the scene, and they can any time. There's no need for a judge or a DA to be involved with an initial arrest.


At the scene, yes. After the fact, they need an arrest warrent.


veganclimber


Mar 20, 2012, 9:40 AM
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donwanadi wrote:
veganclimber wrote:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...artin_n_1340358.html

So here's the cliff notes version of the story:

George Zimmerman is a community watch captain in a gated community in Florida. He sees a black teenager walking down the street and calls to report a "suspicious person". The police tell him to stay in his car, as a cop is on the way. He gets out of his car and confronts the teenager. Zimmerman winds up shooting the kid, killing him. Kid was unarmed by the way.

Now this guy has had several complaints about him in the past for aggressive behavior. According to the lawyer:

In reply to:
Benjamin Crump, the Martin family’s attorney, filed a public records lawsuit last week seeking the 911 recordings for the night of the shooting. Crump said people with access to the tapes told him Zimmerman made a comment about Martin’s race during the call and said he had no intention of letting the youth get away because, “they always get away.”

The guy has not been arrested. Reason:

In reply to:
“In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self defense," Lee said. "Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.”

What the fuck? If you claim self defense the prosecutor has to prove that it wasn't? How is that ever possible if there are no witnesses? In this particular case the kid was walking down the street minding his own business. The wannabe cop confronts him and then winds up shooting him in self defense?

I've heard several other cases of this "Stand Your Ground" law that allows you to kill anybody you think is threatening you. This country is just getting more fucked up every day it seems.

What the fuck? People are innocent until proven guilty.

Yea. It seems to me that the prosecutors job should be to prove that he killed the kid. If the guy wants to claim self defense he can make his case to the jury. The way the law is written it seems almost impossible to do.

Let's look at it this way. This guy Zimmerman was a known nutcase. He literally called 911 dozens of times in the months before the shooting. Obviously a wannabe cop that's just desperate to find a criminal somewhere. He finds an unarmed kid walking down the street and calls it in as a suspicious person. He then ignores the police and confronts the kid, eventually shooting him. If the prosecutors cannot make a case out of this, there is something seriously wrong with the laws in Florida.


dan2see


Mar 20, 2012, 9:31 PM
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I read the news item above, and the comments in the forum. But I couldn't figure out what the issue actually was all about.

So today our news TV gave a pretty plain description of the event, and a short but damning audio clip of the kid's girlfriend's 911 call.

It's really plain from the public presentation that:
- the kid was trying to avoid the man
- the man was trying to harass the kid
- the kid phoned his girlfriend to explain what was going down.
- although she told him to run away, he chose to be work out his conflict with the harasser
- while the girl was on the phone to 911, the man shot the kid
- this is manslaughter for sure, maybe murder
- the cops chose to white-wash the case
- the chief chose to mis-lead the press with a phony excuse that he had no evidence.

It's clear that discrimination over-rides social behaviour, and that when it goes bad, discrimination also trumps the law in Florida.

It's not surprising that the local community is upset by the the murder, and the police choice of non-action.


pinktricam


Mar 26, 2012, 7:37 PM
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dan2see wrote:
I read the news item above, and the comments in the forum. But I couldn't figure out what the issue actually was all about.

So today our news TV gave a pretty plain description of the event, and a short but damning audio clip of the kid's girlfriend's 911 call.

It's really plain from the public presentation that:
- the kid was trying to avoid the man
- the man was trying to harass the kid
- the kid phoned his girlfriend to explain what was going down.
- although she told him to run away, he chose to be work out his conflict with the harasser
- while the girl was on the phone to 911, the man shot the kid
- this is manslaughter for sure, maybe murder
- the cops chose to white-wash the case
- the chief chose to mis-lead the press with a phony excuse that he had no evidence.

It's clear that discrimination over-rides social behaviour, and that when it goes bad, discrimination also trumps the law in Florida.

It's not surprising that the local community is upset by the the murder, and the police choice of non-action.

The "facts" in this case are becoming more and more interesting with each passing day...

Liveleak.com wrote:
While certain facts may remain in doubt, or disputed, what's
increasingly clear is that by climbing over one another to get the
story, mainstream media journalists appear to be adding more confusion,
than clarity, to the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. However, that did
not stop Barack Obama from weighing in, claiming if he had a son, it
would look like Trayvon Martin. That may depend on what photo of him
he's seen, of course.

As Media Reports Conflict, Why Was Trayvon Martin Photo Altered?


dr_feelgood


Mar 26, 2012, 8:26 PM
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pinktricam wrote:
dan2see wrote:
I read the news item above, and the comments in the forum. But I couldn't figure out what the issue actually was all about.

So today our news TV gave a pretty plain description of the event, and a short but damning audio clip of the kid's girlfriend's 911 call.

It's really plain from the public presentation that:
- the kid was trying to avoid the man
- the man was trying to harass the kid
- the kid phoned his girlfriend to explain what was going down.
- although she told him to run away, he chose to be work out his conflict with the harasser
- while the girl was on the phone to 911, the man shot the kid
- this is manslaughter for sure, maybe murder
- the cops chose to white-wash the case
- the chief chose to mis-lead the press with a phony excuse that he had no evidence.

It's clear that discrimination over-rides social behaviour, and that when it goes bad, discrimination also trumps the law in Florida.

It's not surprising that the local community is upset by the the murder, and the police choice of non-action.

The "facts" in this case are becoming more and more interesting with each passing day...

Liveleak.com wrote:
While certain facts may remain in doubt, or disputed, what's
increasingly clear is that by climbing over one another to get the
story, mainstream media journalists appear to be adding more confusion,
than clarity, to the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. However, that did
not stop Barack Obama from weighing in, claiming if he had a son, it
would look like Trayvon Martin. That may depend on what photo of him
he's seen, of course.

As Media Reports Conflict, Why Was Trayvon Martin Photo Altered?

From your link, particularly the upload information:

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In: Regional News
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I'm not precisely sure I trust anything coming from someone with the username "VikingRapeSquad", nor from a website with sections dedicated to snuff footage from Iraq and Afghanistan. But I do have several admitted biases.

edit: dct


(This post was edited by dr_feelgood on Mar 26, 2012, 8:26 PM)


pinktricam


Mar 26, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #25 of 87 (3309 views)
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Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 7947

Re: [dr_feelgood] Stand Your Ground = License to Kill [In reply to]
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dr_feelgood wrote:
pinktricam wrote:
dan2see wrote:
I read the news item above, and the comments in the forum. But I couldn't figure out what the issue actually was all about.

So today our news TV gave a pretty plain description of the event, and a short but damning audio clip of the kid's girlfriend's 911 call.

It's really plain from the public presentation that:
- the kid was trying to avoid the man
- the man was trying to harass the kid
- the kid phoned his girlfriend to explain what was going down.
- although she told him to run away, he chose to be work out his conflict with the harasser
- while the girl was on the phone to 911, the man shot the kid
- this is manslaughter for sure, maybe murder
- the cops chose to white-wash the case
- the chief chose to mis-lead the press with a phony excuse that he had no evidence.

It's clear that discrimination over-rides social behaviour, and that when it goes bad, discrimination also trumps the law in Florida.

It's not surprising that the local community is upset by the the murder, and the police choice of non-action.

The "facts" in this case are becoming more and more interesting with each passing day...

Liveleak.com wrote:
While certain facts may remain in doubt, or disputed, what's
increasingly clear is that by climbing over one another to get the
story, mainstream media journalists appear to be adding more confusion,
than clarity, to the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. However, that did
not stop Barack Obama from weighing in, claiming if he had a son, it
would look like Trayvon Martin. That may depend on what photo of him
he's seen, of course.

As Media Reports Conflict, Why Was Trayvon Martin Photo Altered?

From your link, particularly the upload information:

In reply to:
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Added: 12 hours ago Occurred On: Mar-26-2012
By: VikingRapeSquad
In: Regional News
Tags: trayvon, martin, thug life, killed, criminal, zimmerman, media, bias, lighten photo, dats racist, white hispanic lol
Location: United States (load item map)
Marked as: approved
Views: 5692 | Comments: 63 | Votes: 3 | Favorites: 1 | Shared: 39 | Updates: 0 | Times used in channels: 2 | Reports: 0 (Reposts: 0)

I'm not precisely sure I trust anything coming from someone with the username "VikingRapeSquad", nor from a website with sections dedicated to snuff footage from Iraq and Afghanistan. But I do have several admitted biases.

edit: dct

I'm not so sure I've been able to trust the mainstream media about anything for some time now.


(This post was edited by pinktricam on Mar 26, 2012, 9:08 PM)

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