Forums: Climbing Disciplines: Alpine & Ice:
Auto Locking Munter
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Alpine & Ice

Premier Sponsor:

 


mtnsplitters


Feb 10, 2012, 12:26 PM
Post #1 of 20 (4836 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 27, 2010
Posts: 5

Auto Locking Munter
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Simple, light and fast. These are aspects of alpine climbing that we must constantly strive for if we are to be efficient and reduce our exposure to objective hazards in the mountains. And sometimes this means reducing the security of yourself and your partner. The ALM stands out as an exception. It provides a secure, light and simple belay system. It’s fast to load, it can be made to be as secure as a plaquette (Reverso, ATC Guide, etc) and you can go from a standard munter to the ALM mid pitch.

The auto-locking munter hitch can come in handy in a variety of situations. The munter is a belay technique that is often used by mountaineers and guides due to its ease of use and efficiency. Essentially, the ALM is just a munter hitch tied on to a locker and then a second locker (the blocker-locker) is clipped to the munter and the follower’s strand allowing the munter to ‘auto-lock.’ As simple as it is, there are a couple nuances that you should know before you use it in the field.

*The ALM will create more friction than a standard munter. The friction is best reduced by using the biggest pearabiners you have. Feeding the rope through the ALM, instead of pulling it through, will help reduce both friction and the tendency for twists to occur in the brake strand.
*Generally speaking, the ALM should only be used in top belay situations.
*It is extremely difficult or impossible to lower your follower once the ALM is loaded. It should only be used in terrain where this is not a concern.
*It’s best to use a locker for the ‘blocker-locker’, especially if you are going to be going hands free while belaying. Also, try to clip the two strands so that the second’s strand doesn’t brush past the gate in a direction that might open it (see the example in the attached jpeg).

http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/forum/files/image.gif

In the photo: The ALM with the gold ‘biner acting as the blocker-locker. The shorter strand of rope (with the yellow tag) represents the strand that goes to the follower. When the follower’s strand is loaded, the weight will try to rotate the munter into the back of the ‘biner and out the front. Because the munter is clipped to the loaded strand and acts as a post, it won’t let the rotation occur; this is what creates the locking effect.

As with any new technical skill, you should practice this technique with someone that can coach you on the proper application of the given skill. Be safe out there!

For more Tech Tips, check out:http://www.facebook.com/...ionTraining?sk=notes


(This post was edited by mtnsplitters on Feb 10, 2012, 12:35 PM)
Attachments: Auto Locking Munter.jpg (114 KB)


maldaly


Feb 10, 2012, 2:07 PM
Post #2 of 20 (4802 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1207

Re: [mtnsplitters] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

mtnsplitters,
Has anyone ever tested this? Does the rope diameter matter? Can it handle any kind of body-weight + load? How much? Does it matter if it is a new rope or old? Waterproof or not?

Would love to see some test data.
Mal


Partner rgold


Feb 10, 2012, 2:28 PM
Post #3 of 20 (4792 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1800

Re: [maldaly] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

I've never heard of any tests. It's been around for at least seven years or so. It is impossible to release once loaded---that is impossible, not difficult or tricky.

There has been some discussion over at http://www.mountainproject.com/...-and-donts/107449883


maldaly


Feb 10, 2012, 2:57 PM
Post #4 of 20 (4775 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1207

Re: [rgold] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

rgold,
So if I get this right, it has more problems than an autoblock ATC with none of the benefits?
Mal


mtnsplitters


Feb 10, 2012, 3:29 PM
Post #5 of 20 (4764 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 27, 2010
Posts: 5

Re: [maldaly] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

maldaly,
As far as I know, no one has done any 'lab' style tests on this. I would love to see that info as well.

I have bounce tested it with the weight of 2 people and it doesn't even begin to slip. That's the only testing I've done.

I have been using it in the field for a few years now and usually use it while guiding alpine terrain. I often belay on a munter and when I need to go hands free once the follower starts up I throw in that second locker. It is NOT intended to replace a plaquette. It's just another trick to have in your bag for alpine situations.....

Also, the bigger the biners and the smaller the diameter of the rope, the better it feeds, similar to a plaquette.

I posted this hoping to hear from folks that have used this in the field. Anyone???


Partner rgold


Feb 12, 2012, 10:34 AM
Post #6 of 20 (4663 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 3, 2002
Posts: 1800

Re: [maldaly] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

maldaly wrote:
rgold,
So if I get this right, it has more problems than an autoblock ATC with none of the benefits?
Mal

That's my take. But I think it is a good way to rig an improvised prusik if you don't carry an autolocking ATC-type device. Use the autolocking munter on the harness and your favorite friction knot for a foot sling.

Full disclosure: I already think autoblock upper belays suck.

Even fuller disclosure: I occasionally use them anyway.


Lazlo


Feb 12, 2012, 3:12 PM
Post #7 of 20 (4612 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [mtnsplitters] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks for the tip. I see it being helpful when a full munter tie-off is overkill, but you still need to be hands free.

I use the munter all the time, so this is probably going to be very useful.


Lazlo


Feb 12, 2012, 5:42 PM
Post #8 of 20 (4582 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2007
Posts: 5070

Re: [Lazlo] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I tried out the setup for belaying and also for ascending. I was pleasantly surprised at how little friction there actually was. I started off using a 10mm static rope, then I went to a 8.2mm. The results only got better. And if anything; the security of the hitch seemed heightened with the 8.2mm rope.

The only down side I saw was while switching from ascending to rappelling with the munter while free hanging. It was doable, but less than secure. ....And this, in all actuality, has nothing to do with the autolocking feature itself; it's just the dynamic of the munter being used to rappel on an 8.2mm rope.


FullertonImages


Mar 14, 2012, 3:03 PM
Post #9 of 20 (4293 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 30, 2009
Posts: 40

Re: [Lazlo] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Seems interesting, I'll have to play with that at some point. Thanks for the tip!


Rudmin


Mar 15, 2012, 6:19 AM
Post #11 of 20 (4240 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606

Re: [mtnsplitters] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

You could also get the same thing with this hitch. It might have a little bit less friction than the ALM



I believe you could unlock this hitch by opening up the lower carabiner and jerking around the brake strand


(This post was edited by Rudmin on Mar 15, 2012, 10:24 AM)


dead_horse_flats


Mar 18, 2012, 9:04 PM
Post #12 of 20 (4100 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [Rudmin] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Which end is the brake end, and does it have a name?


MFC


Mar 19, 2012, 7:41 AM
Post #13 of 20 (4061 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 17, 2010
Posts: 19

Re: [dead_horse_flats] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I found a reference to this auto locking belay in the "Ontario Rock Climbing Assoc. - Safety Manual - 1990". They call it the "C and F Belay Hitch."

To quote the manual, " This belay hitch was developed by Robert Chisnall and Jean-Marc Filion, specifically for use in haul systems. This is not a dynamic belay. The rope can be taken in but any attempt to run the rope out results in the belay going static."

In the picture posted, the load strand is the one on "top"; you can see that if this strand is loaded it will squeeze down on the strand beneath it, locking it off.

"The C and F belay hitch can be converted easily and quickly to the Chisnall carabiner wrap belay for lowering purposes."


Rudmin


Mar 19, 2012, 7:59 AM
Post #14 of 20 (4045 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 29, 2009
Posts: 606

Re: [dead_horse_flats] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

There is a similar sailing hitch called the black wall hitch, and apparently in Italy this is called the Edi Lorenz hitch. It seems to be a bit carabiner dependent. Specifically with a smaller top carabiner it can be impossible to capsize. Mess around with it and see for yourself if you are curious how safe it is.

This is all from this MP page:
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/what-do-you-call-this-autoblock-hitch/107333254#a_107333648


(This post was edited by Rudmin on Mar 19, 2012, 9:14 AM)


dead_horse_flats


Mar 19, 2012, 5:01 PM
Post #15 of 20 (3988 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [Rudmin] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Thanks to Rudmin and MFC for the info.


cjon3s


May 2, 2012, 6:46 PM
Post #16 of 20 (3716 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 7, 2009
Posts: 150

Re: [Rudmin] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

That looks awfully similar to a garda hitch. What purpose does that lower 'biner serve? I can't see what function it really has.

The garda works great for haul systems so I imagine.. if needed, it could be used as an impromptu autolocking belay device..

Note: I haven't tried this, just spewing ideas.


theguy


May 2, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #17 of 20 (3669 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 461

Re: [mtnsplitters] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Mtnsplitters, useful variation. this photo appears to show the loaded strand on the gate side of the biner.my understanding is that one should keep the loaded strand of the munter on the spine side of the biner.

Comments?

cjon3s, if you're referring to the c and f hitch, not only are you spewing without trying it out, you're also not really thinking this through...how would a rope looped once around a biner provide braking?


cjon3s


May 4, 2012, 11:24 PM
Post #18 of 20 (3574 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 7, 2009
Posts: 150

Re: [theguy] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

...I'm not. The garda uses a second biner next to the first one to hold the load. Just commenting that it looked similar.

All I was saying was that the garda can do the same thing as the ALM and serve as a hitch to take in rope, but once weighted you cannot lower with it.

edited to clarify


(This post was edited by cjon3s on May 4, 2012, 11:30 PM)


FullertonImages


Aug 28, 2012, 9:45 PM
Post #19 of 20 (2874 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 30, 2009
Posts: 40

Re: [MFC] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

MFC wrote:
They call it the "C and F Belay Hitch."

C and F Hitch, huh? Sounds suspiciously like the clusterfuck hitch...

But seriously, it does look rather interesting. I'll have to play around with it some time!


Derek_Doucet


Aug 29, 2012, 6:22 AM
Post #20 of 20 (2817 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 9, 2012
Posts: 7

Re: [cjon3s] Auto Locking Munter [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cjon3s wrote:
That looks awfully similar to a garda hitch. What purpose does that lower 'biner serve? I can't see what function it really has.

The garda works great for haul systems so I imagine.. if needed, it could be used as an impromptu autolocking belay device..

Note: I haven't tried this, just spewing ideas.

You can take in rope with considerably less friction than a Garda. The lower carabiner is absolutely essential. Without it, the load strand can move into a position where it will not lay directly over the brake strand, effectively eliminating any braking properties of the hitch.


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Alpine & Ice

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook