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Beginner_2
Mar 15, 2012, 5:58 AM
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Lets say I am climbing a lead climb which has 10 bolts before reaching the anchor at the top. Lets also say that I only manage to reach bolt 6 and then its to difficult for me to continue.
How do you all usually descend from the climb if its your final climb of the day and you only reach bolt 6 out of 10, so you don't have a proper anchor? I don't want to leave a quickdraw in the 6th bolt and rappel from it, nor a sling. Also being lowered by your partner with the rope threaded through the bolt would damage the rope a bit I guess?
Is it best to attach yourself with a sling to the bolt, then pull half the rope through the bolt and rappel on the two parts of the rope (normal rappel)? This way you don't pull the rope through the bolt with any weight on it and you don't leave any gear.
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redlude97
Mar 15, 2012, 6:35 AM
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Leave a carabiner(or 2), it is payment for punting.
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majid_sabet
Mar 15, 2012, 6:41 AM
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rap on hanger ?
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healyje
Mar 15, 2012, 8:52 AM
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Beginner_2 wrote: I don't want to leave a quickdraw...
The first point - never put gear ahead of your life, ever. The second point - don't make things any more complicated than they already are or need to be. Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it.
Beginner_2 wrote: Also being lowered by your partner with the rope threaded through the bolt...
That was your one time to get to think about the concept, now please completely purge even the memory of having ever broached it.
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granite_grrl
Mar 15, 2012, 11:25 AM
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There are very few bolts you can put your rope through without destroying it. You can do it with glue-ins for exanple, but the edges on a regular hanger are just too sharp.
If you can't get to the top of a sport climb there are techniques using a stick clip that can allow you to get to the top, but these techniques are advanced and I don't feel comfortable trying to tell a new climber how to do it over the internet. If you can get out with someone with some advanced stick clip-fu you might be able to get a demonstraition.
The best option for you is to either carry a cheap bail biner and lower off the bolt using that or dismantle your draw and leave a single biner from it to lower from.
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naitch
Mar 15, 2012, 11:55 AM
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Make an offering to the god of Bail (bail biner) To those who give, you shall receive (you'll get your share of bail biners in the future if you improve)
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markc
Mar 15, 2012, 2:33 PM
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healyje wrote: Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it.
With respect, there's no reason to leave an entire quickdraw under normal circumstances. If you can't swap out your quickdraw for a cheap carabiner you're willing to sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be sport climbing, cleaning anchors, etc.
Despite the recommendation from Petzl, it's best not to use quicklinks for bailing. It makes it harder for the person cleaning up after you.
I'm generally comfortable bailing off a single biner, but you can always back up the upper bolt by leaving another carabiner on the second bolt down. If I'm calling it quits, I've usually taken a few lead falls on the bolt I'll be bailing from. I've also been hanging from it and lowered from it to the next bolt down. I consider that sufficiently tested, and clean the rest of the route. YMMV.
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healyje
Mar 15, 2012, 2:42 PM
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markc wrote: healyje wrote: Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it. With respect, there's no reason to leave an entire quickdraw under normal circumstances. If you can't swap out your quickdraw for a cheap carabiner you're willing to sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be sport climbing, cleaning anchors, etc.
I disagree for beginners, screwing around mid-route swapping gear isn't something they should be doing.
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surfstar
Mar 15, 2012, 2:59 PM
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healyje wrote: markc wrote: healyje wrote: Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it. With respect, there's no reason to leave an entire quickdraw under normal circumstances. If you can't swap out your quickdraw for a cheap carabiner you're willing to sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be sport climbing, cleaning anchors, etc. I disagree for beginners, screwing around mid-route swapping gear isn't something they should be doing.
If they can't get how to perform this, they shouldn't be leading.
And as markc mentioned, especially cleaning an anchor.
(This post was edited by surfstar on Mar 17, 2012, 7:03 PM)
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granite_grrl
Mar 15, 2012, 2:59 PM
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healyje wrote: markc wrote: healyje wrote: Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it. With respect, there's no reason to leave an entire quickdraw under normal circumstances. If you can't swap out your quickdraw for a cheap carabiner you're willing to sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be sport climbing, cleaning anchors, etc. I disagree for beginners, screwing around mid-route swapping gear isn't something they should be doing.
Otherwise you might as wel tell them never to leave the gym.
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surfstar
Mar 15, 2012, 3:02 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: Otherwise you might as wel tell them never to leave the gym.
Best answer yet!
Only climb where there's permadraws = never bail on your own gear.
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marc801
Mar 15, 2012, 7:17 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: There are very few bolts you can put your rope through without destroying it. You can do it with glue-ins for exanple, but the edges on a regular hanger are just too sharp.
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eric_k
Mar 15, 2012, 8:43 PM
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I often bring a small sling made of cord to rap off if I need to. The cord sling will usually only cost 1 or 2 dollars and is a lot better to rap off than most bolt hangers even some glue-ins.
Eric
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shimanilami
Mar 15, 2012, 8:57 PM
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Bail. Leave all draws in place. Then tell me where to go to retrieve my booty.
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csproul
Mar 15, 2012, 9:20 PM
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Seriously, if you've been climbing any significant length of time, you have crappy biners that are good for virtually nothing else except bailing and/or hanging your smelly shoes from. Tying webbing/cord onto a bolt just leaves it for someone else to clean up (I know it's not that much work, but still). Bail biners come and go, eventually it evens out...pay the wages of failure.
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sherpa79
Mar 15, 2012, 10:13 PM
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csproul wrote: Seriously, if you've been climbing any significant length of time, you have crappy biners that are good for virtually nothing else except bailing and/or hanging your smelly shoes from. Tying webbing/cord onto a bolt just leaves it for someone else to clean up (I know it's not that much work, but still). Bail biners come and go, eventually it evens out...pay the wages of failure.
I think the point is that the OP hasn't been climbing for long enough to have biners just for their smelly shoes. Hence the question. 
But I'll agree that leaving a gear (carabiner, quickdraw, whatever) is the way to go. NOT tat that another climber has to clean up or remove just to clip the bolt.
Matter or fact, I think a number of bail biners/slings are a great purchase for a new leader. You can always borrow someone's draws or rack, but when learning you'll need some cheap insurance.
I always take along a little extra when climbing in a new area, just in case. It's not special technique. It's just what you do.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 16, 2012, 4:37 PM
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healyje wrote: markc wrote: healyje wrote: Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it. With respect, there's no reason to leave an entire quickdraw under normal circumstances. If you can't swap out your quickdraw for a cheap carabiner you're willing to sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be sport climbing, cleaning anchors, etc. I disagree for beginners, screwing around mid-route swapping gear isn't something they should be doing.
With that logic, beginners shouldn't be going out on their own at all. They should have someone more experienced with them, in which case they would not have to leave any gear because someone else can clean up after them.
Josh
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sp115
Mar 16, 2012, 5:39 PM
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eric_k wrote: I often bring a small sling made of cord to rap off if I need to. The cord sling will usually only cost 1 or 2 dollars and is a lot better to rap off than most bolt hangers even some glue-ins. Eric
Really not trying to be an Interweb douche, but I don't think this is a very good idea considering how sharp some hangers can be.
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marc801
Mar 16, 2012, 5:58 PM
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eric_k wrote: I often bring a small sling made of cord to rap off if I need to. The cord sling will usually only cost 1 or 2 dollars and is a lot better to rap off than most bolt hangers even some glue-ins.
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lena_chita
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Mar 16, 2012, 6:05 PM
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eric_k wrote: I often bring a small sling made of cord to rap off if I need to. The cord sling will usually only cost 1 or 2 dollars and is a lot better to rap off than most bolt hangers even some glue-ins. Eric
Why is it that climbers will often pay hundreds of dollars to get their gear, paying extra for the features they want, instead of getting rock-bottom-priced gear, but when it comes to bailing the difference between a $2-$3 sling and a $8-$10 'biner is considered to be a significant consideration?
Honestly, in about 9 years I had to leave a bail 'biner only twice.
I have collected more than a dozen of bail 'biners, and sometimes bail draws, over the same period of time. Most of them (and some more of the 'biners that I have bought) have been subsequently used as communal items, to be left on anchors for ease of cleaning, to replace bad 'biners on fixed draws, etc.
So yes, if you can't stick-clip your way up, carry an extra 'biner, or cannibalize one of your draws, and leave that 'biner. And consider it a (REALLY CHEAP!!!!) learning experience, as well as a community service.
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markc
Mar 16, 2012, 6:37 PM
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lena_chita wrote: eric_k wrote: I often bring a small sling made of cord to rap off if I need to. The cord sling will usually only cost 1 or 2 dollars and is a lot better to rap off than most bolt hangers even some glue-ins. Eric Why is it that climbers will often pay hundreds of dollars to get their gear, paying extra for the features they want, instead of getting rock-bottom-priced gear, but when it comes to bailing the difference between a $2-$3 sling and a $8-$10 'biner is considered to be a significant consideration? Honestly, in about 9 years I had to leave a bail 'biner only twice. I have collected more than a dozen of bail 'biners, and sometimes bail draws, over the same period of time. Most of them (and some more of the 'biners that I have bought) have been subsequently used as communal items, to be left on anchors for ease of cleaning, to replace bad 'biners on fixed draws, etc. So yes, if you can't stick-clip your way up, carry an extra 'biner, or cannibalize one of your draws, and leave that 'biner. And consider it a (REALLY CHEAP!!!!) learning experience, as well as a community service.
In addition, someone else in your party may be able to finish the climb, if there's easy top access you can rap or get lowered to retrieve gear, or a neighboring route may be close enough to let you recover your biner.
I'd suggest just spending $5.50 on a BD oval. Leave that sucker on your harness and you have a cheap alternative without cannibalizing a more expensive 'biner from your draw. That's probably less than you'll spend on gas getting to the crag or drinks/food afterward.
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cracklover
Mar 16, 2012, 8:20 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: healyje wrote: markc wrote: healyje wrote: Sure, you could do some sort of Petzl-like lower-off, but as a beginner KISS should rule - just lower off the draw you fell on and leave it. With respect, there's no reason to leave an entire quickdraw under normal circumstances. If you can't swap out your quickdraw for a cheap carabiner you're willing to sacrifice, you probably shouldn't be sport climbing, cleaning anchors, etc. I disagree for beginners, screwing around mid-route swapping gear isn't something they should be doing. With that logic, beginners shouldn't be going out on their own at all. They should have someone more experienced with them, in which case they would not have to leave any gear because someone else can clean up after them. Josh
There's a story of a n00b wall climber, he'd been learning his aid systems, and had found his way to Yosemite Valley. Well he wanders into the Cafeteria and sees a big name wall climber. He walks right up, introduces himself, and tells the guy what an honor it is to meet him.
Then he asks for the guys opinion "What do you think I need to do to get ready for my first trip up El Cap?"
The big name wall climber explains to the noob how he should start with several grade IV routes, work his way up, do Washington Column, yada yada. The n00b looks crestfallen.
"But I'm only here for two weeks!" he says. "I heard that your first real aid climb was a new route up El Cap! So why do I need to spend all that time working up through the grades?"
"You're right," says the big name climber. "My first wall was a new route up El Cap. But the difference is that I didn't have to ask anyone any how-to before doing it."
If you have to ask how to bail, follow healyje's advice. If you don't... well then there you go, you're already all set and you know it.
GO
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cracklover
Mar 16, 2012, 8:23 PM
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The other day, I was in exactly such a situation. I was at a climbing area that caters to n00bs. And one had gotten himself into quite a predicament. He'd "forgotten" his guidebook, and figured that all the routes were probably pretty easy, so he headed up one. When he got to the hard part (I don't know the route, but I'd estimate by looking at it that it was at least mid 5.11) he got stuck, and he and his noob partner were trying to figure out how to get him down without leaving any gear.
Well when I got to him, he had managed to clean most all of the draws except the one he was hanging on, on the sixth bolt. That one he'd connect to with a chain of draws and biners, many of which were clipped biner to biner (non-locking). He was literally flailing and flapping all around trying to figure out how to get down after unclipping from the one draw he was still on, and I asked him if he wanted help. (I had chatted with him earlier in the day). He said yes please.
I instructed him exactly as healyje did above. To do anything else would simply have invited accident. I also explained that if he really wanted his draw back, he could hike around to the top, reach down to the anchors, rig up a rappel, and get his gear, but that it would take some significant time.
IMO, that draw is a small price to pay for ignorance and arrogance.
GO
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markc
Mar 16, 2012, 8:26 PM
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cracklover wrote: If you have to ask how to bail, follow healyje's advice. If you don't... well then there you go, you're already all set and you know it.
I normally respect your opinion, but that kind of logic would keep my kid in velcro shoes for the rest of his life.
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