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Ope


Mar 30, 2012, 10:18 PM
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Bolting in Tufas
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Any advice on what to do when bolting in limestone and you can only drill tru about 2"of solid rock before hitting a void to where a 3" expansion bolt will no longer work. Would glue-ins be better?
Thanks,


USnavy


Mar 31, 2012, 2:10 AM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
Any advice on what to do when bolting in limestone and you can only drill tru about 2"of solid rock before hitting a void to where a 3" expansion bolt will no longer work. Would glue-ins be better?
Thanks,
Yes - donít install a bolt there, thatís a classic example of a poor placement.

But to answer your question, a glue in would be the only option, you absolutely must not use a expansion bolt in that type of placement! If you ever hit a pocket or void, you must drill a new hole or use a glue in, never place an expansion bolt in a void! The only exception is if you are using some crazy long bolt (such as, to bolt a flake on) and you hit a small pocket but then continue drilling into solid rock. The idea is that the expansion clip/cone must be in deep and solid rock, or else the bolt could rip with very little force.

However, if you did use a glue in bolt, you cannot simply just squirt some epoxy in the drilled hole and call it a day. If you just fill the drilled hole with epoxy, the bolt is just going to push the epoxy into the void as you insert it, leaving you with a compromised bolt. So the alternative is to fill the entire void with epoxy or use a screen such one of these: http://www.us.hilti.com/...on.jsf?nodeId=-60845 However, even with a screen you are going to have problems.

So in summary, the best (and only) option is to choose a different placement. Place the bolt higher up and hang a long draw. Place the bolt before the tufa or after it. Make the route go somewhere else. There are many options, but a compromised bolt placement should never be one of them. Always take the time to place bolts in solid, contiguous rock.

btw, what type of bolts are you using?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 31, 2012, 2:13 AM)


Ope


Mar 31, 2012, 7:08 AM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Hilti KB3 Bolt 3/8" x 3"
Thanks for the advice.


guangzhou


Mar 31, 2012, 7:30 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
Any advice on what to do when bolting in limestone and you can only drill tru about 2"of solid rock before hitting a void to where a 3" expansion bolt will no longer work. Would glue-ins be better?
Thanks,

Are you drilling in a Tufa or the face holding a tufa.

Tufa's vary tremendously, got any photos? Personally, I do my best to avoid having the bolt in the ctual tufa when ever I can.

Where is this. Sometime, the best option is to drill a hole right through the tufa itself and use a sling instead of a bolt. Sometime a permanent sling tied off works well.


USnavy


Mar 31, 2012, 11:37 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
Hilti KB3 Bolt 3/8" x 3"
Thanks for the advice.
No problem, just keep in mind how those wedge bolts work. The expansion clip at the end of the bolt is slightly larger then the diameter of the bolt to prevent the clip from moving in the drilled hole. As the load is applied to the bolt, the cone draws into the expansion clip which creates outwards force opposing the outwards pull of the bolt. Remember, the diameter of the expansion clip is greater than the diameter of the bolt, so once the clip hits a pocket or void, its outside of the drilled hole permanently. When the load is applied to the bolt, the expansion clip is going to hit the end of the pocket and the bolt could pull itself through the clip leaving you with nothing but a piece of threaded rod. That is why it is extremely important to drill a new hole if you are using wedge anchors and you hit a pocket or void. It is really easy to mimic this issue by finding a small piece of rock and drilling a hole all the way through it. Then insert a bolt all the way through and start tightening it. You will see that the clip is just expanding in air, and eventually the bolt will likely just pull through the clip.


Ope


Apr 1, 2012, 7:57 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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I would post a photo just not sure on how to do it yet. I have tried beside the tufa and in the tufa. I used my hammer to sound the rock and drilled where it sounded most solid. As you drill through the first few inches it's all good then the last half or quater there is a void. Not all the rock is this way. I'm going to switch to glue-ins. Has anyone used PL 9000 as a glue for glue-in bolts.
I think that drilling thru the tufa and threading is a last resort for this wall but none the less still an option.
Oh and the area is under wraps, top secret, but will tell you this, it's fricken the kewlest tufa climbing.
I'll post a photo when I figure out how!
Thanks,
Ope.


Ope


Apr 1, 2012, 8:05 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Kewl US Navy ya Im going to use glue-ins, as the research online seems to show this is the way. What do you think of PL 9000 for the glue?
Thanks,
Ope


guangzhou


Apr 1, 2012, 7:07 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Glu-in is nice, but really dependends on how big the pocket you're drilling into is.

In one limestone wall I was bolting, I had a similar issues, the solution for me on that wall was three bolts that were 11 inches long. That put me through the pocket in back in solid rock for a while.

Instead og wedge bolts, if the pocket is narrow and solid rock is found behnd it, you can also use a sleeve anchor instead.


USnavy


Apr 1, 2012, 11:21 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
Kewl US Navy ya Im going to use glue-ins, as the research online seems to show this is the way. What do you think of PL 9000 for the glue?
Thanks,
Ope
The LePage LE900? Absolutely not! NEVER use any type of one part adhesive that uses air to dry (basically anything that comes in a calking tube like the stuff you referenced). You have to use a two part epoxy or epoxy acrylate (pure epoxy is best) that chemically cures by mixing a resin with a hardener through a mixing tube. Some of the most common stuff used is the Simpson SET22, Simpson SET Pack-EZ, the Hilti RE-500 or RE-150 (not as strong as the 500), and the Powers T308+. Use an epoxy from that list and you will be fine. My favorite is the SET 22 because I can get it from Lowes or Home Depot if I run out and it is insanely strong.

However the fact that you are asking this question tells me you need to get some additional shadow time from someone familiar with using glue in bolts. Placing glue-in bolts is an advanced task which demands knowledge in the field, using the wrong adhesive or poorly preparing the hole (by failing to properly clean, brush, or blow the hole) can lead to a critically weakened bolt placement. Also, failing to use a bolt that is adequately threaded or has adequate mechanical keying in it can lead to the bolt ripping from the epoxy (bond failure). So you have to use the right epoxy, the right type of bolt, and you have to prepare the hole correctly. Placing glue-in bolts also presents the bolter with air pocket related issues. There is technique with placing glue-in bolts in an epoxy filled hole. Simply slamming the bolt into an epoxy filled hole can easily create an air pocket. An big air pocket in the epoxy can greatly reduce the pull out strength of the bolt.

Here is an article to get you started: http://climbargolis.com/Glue-inBoltDesign.htm

As far as posting pictures goes, just host the picture on Image Shack and copy and paste the link, thats all we need.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 1, 2012, 11:35 PM)


mojomonkey


Apr 2, 2012, 5:11 AM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
Kewl US Navy ya Im going to use glue-ins, as the research online seems to show this is the way. What do you think of PL 9000 for the glue?
Thanks,
Ope

This thread, combined with its mountain project partner are either mildly amusing, or sad. You gloss right over "research" that doesn't result in the end you desire. Hope you don't bring a tufa with you if you whip on one of your bolts, and that your area stays secret enough that nobody else is tempted to climb on your handiwork.


Ope


Apr 2, 2012, 10:42 AM
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Thanks US Navy! mojomonkey I'm sorry you feel this way.
Ope.


Ope


Apr 2, 2012, 11:26 AM
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What's your view of the Fixe Glue In Bolt For 12mm Hole? What bolts do you use?
Thanks,
Ope.


shotwell


Apr 2, 2012, 12:51 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
What's your view of the Fixe Glue In Bolt For 12mm Hole? What bolts do you use?
Thanks,
Ope.

Ope, I'll try with you as you seem to be missing everyone else's point.

You're going to rip the placement in this tufa if you use a standard length bolt, even a glue in.

You need to use something that is long enough to reach to your normal depth of embedding in the solid stone behind the 'void.' You also need to find a way to reduce the leverage on the part of the bolt that won't be in this solid stone.

If there isn't solid stone behind the 'void,' you're going to have a pretty damn high likelihood of ripping the bolt. If you improperly install this bolt (which is going to be pretty damn easy to do) you're going to have a pretty damn high likelihood of ripping the bolt.

If you're serious about this project try to get in touch with Jim Titt of Bolt Products. If anyone can help you find a reasonable solution, it is likely to be him. If he tells you not to move forward with this, consider it the voice of experience warning you.

http://climbargolis.com/AboutBoltProducts.htm


TonyB3


Apr 2, 2012, 2:46 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
Thanks US Navy! mojomonkey I'm sorry you feel this way.
Ope.

Don't be swayed by long answers full of regurgitated info gleaned from books. USNavy has absolutely no experience bolting in tufas and any answers he has given you have not come from personal experience with what you describe.

USnavy wrote:
I am considering building a crack machine to put up at the local gym to help work on some basic crack climbing technique.

Is it even worth building, will it help teach any technique at all? My idea was to read a book about crack climbing then go and practice the locks and techniques taught in the book on the crack machine. Is this a reasonable method of learning before I take a trip to Yosemite and actually try some cracks?


Is this someone who you want to take as the voice of experience?

Other posters have voiced legitimate concerns and provided you with good information. Take anything the sailorboy says with a grain of salt (i.e. ignore it.)


USnavy


Apr 2, 2012, 6:08 PM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Ope wrote:
What's your view of the Fixe Glue In Bolt For 12mm Hole? What bolts do you use?
Thanks,
Ope.
We use custom manufactured grade 6 titanium alloy ear bolts and u-bolts. Basically they look like the Ushba Tortuga. But I have placed a verity of bolts, including the one you referenced. With the Fixe glue in, you have to make sure you imbed the head into the rock by chiseling out a channel for the head, you cannot just drill a hole and slam it in there like a lot of people. There is an instruction page on their website showing how to install it.

But as others have said, its best to just scrap this project if you cannot find a solid placement. Just climb it on TR or make it go somewhere else. Its best to avoid bolting tufas period, regardless of the quality of the rock, unless its a really big tufa comprised of solid rock. You should not place any bolt that is within eight inches of any crack or the end of the rock. When you load a bolt, the rock around the bolt is influenced by the load. If there is not enough rock surrounding the bolt, the load is concentrated in a smaller portion of the rock which can result in rock failure and subsequently, bolt failure. This is known to the anchor industry as critical edge spacing distance. Pretty much every manufacturer of expansion bolts has a technical specs page which list the critical edge spacing distance requirements for their bolts and a load reduction table which shows you how much the placement is weakened if you do not meet the edge spacing requirements.

You are going to end up installing a glue in in the tufa and you are going to fall on it, ripping the tufa in half, sending it down the rope with you. Place a bolt up on the roof and hang a long draw off it instead. Smile

It would also be a lot easier to give advice if we had a picture. You can host the picture here: http://imageshack.us/


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 2, 2012, 6:11 PM)


JimTitt


Apr 16, 2012, 12:13 AM
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Re: [Ope] Bolting in Tufas [In reply to]
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Like the guys said, you avoid drilling tufas if at all possible. Even if you get the bolt to hold tufas themselves are unbelievably unreliable and you are just as likely to go down with it which is worse than the bolt failing.
Either drill beside it or if it is a tufa curtain use long bolts, its as easy as that. Iīve resorted to 18" long ones where nothing else would work but you donīt want to do that too often.
And its usual to place more bolts than one would normally use working on the "something might hold" principle.


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