Forums: Climbing Information: The Lab:
$40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure.
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for The Lab

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All


dead_horse_flats


Feb 3, 2012, 2:11 PM
Post #26 of 92 (6319 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
[
Okay, but we got a foot of snow last night, and it's going to keep dumping all day today, so it will be some time before all this melts and I can take real photos outdoors. Would you prefer to wait, or shall I simulate it as well as I can indoors?

At some point, I will try to recruit someone to shoot video, because actually watching the rope wiggling out from the first biner is much different than just seeing still pics of the progress. The escape from the second biner is more straightforward.

Just the same, I'm confident that between text and photos, you should understand it well enough to be able to recreate it yourself.

Anyway, please spell out your terms - what do you need from me? Real situation outdoors, or simulated indoors? Photos and instructions enough, or do you need video? Because if you need real video from outdoors, it could be a long time. (As I said, I'll try to do the video at some point even if you accept still shots now. Maybe my wife will agree to help if I split the $40 with her).

GO

You wont get a little wet and cold for $40. Actually go ahead and try the pictures indoors for a start and we'll see if it works.


Partner cracklover


Feb 3, 2012, 3:50 PM
Post #27 of 92 (6307 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [dead_horse_flats] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

dead_horse_flats wrote:
cracklover wrote:
[
Okay, but we got a foot of snow last night, and it's going to keep dumping all day today, so it will be some time before all this melts and I can take real photos outdoors. Would you prefer to wait, or shall I simulate it as well as I can indoors?

At some point, I will try to recruit someone to shoot video, because actually watching the rope wiggling out from the first biner is much different than just seeing still pics of the progress. The escape from the second biner is more straightforward.

Just the same, I'm confident that between text and photos, you should understand it well enough to be able to recreate it yourself.

Anyway, please spell out your terms - what do you need from me? Real situation outdoors, or simulated indoors? Photos and instructions enough, or do you need video? Because if you need real video from outdoors, it could be a long time. (As I said, I'll try to do the video at some point even if you accept still shots now. Maybe my wife will agree to help if I split the $40 with her).

GO

You wont get a little wet and cold for $40. Actually go ahead and try the pictures indoors for a start and we'll see if it works.

Nothing to do with cold and wet. I have no exposed rock.

Yea or nay on pics indoors? I'm not going to go through the trouble for "we'll see". I already know the answer to your question. You want to know it too, then you tell me the parameters you need.

GO


dead_horse_flats


Feb 3, 2012, 8:47 PM
Post #28 of 92 (6277 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Indoors or out, I dont care. What matters is if you can adequately demonstrate and explain the process. If you can do that with photos, fine. If not then do a video. Pound some nails in your kitchen wall and build an anchor off those. The only thing that matters to me is that you explain it in a way that others can understand.


Partner cracklover


Feb 4, 2012, 10:10 AM
Post #29 of 92 (6230 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [dead_horse_flats] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Okay. It'll take some time to do right. But unless things get crazy at work, I should have it for you within the week.

GO


dead_horse_flats


Feb 4, 2012, 3:48 PM
Post #30 of 92 (6194 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 14, 2006
Posts: 64

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

PM sent with terms and conditions for using a 3rd party judge.


jae8908


Feb 16, 2012, 7:25 PM
Post #31 of 92 (6055 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 15, 2011
Posts: 270

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
Okay. It'll take some time to do right. But unless things get crazy at work, I should have it for you within the week.

GO

Did you succeed?


Partner cracklover


Feb 17, 2012, 8:46 AM
Post #32 of 92 (6000 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [jae8908] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jae8908 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Okay. It'll take some time to do right. But unless things get crazy at work, I should have it for you within the week.

GO

Did you succeed?

My bad - haven't made it a priority. Between work, climbing, and VDay, I've been busy. Will work on it today after work and see how far i get.

Thanks for the reminder.

GO


jae8908


Feb 17, 2012, 9:54 PM
Post #33 of 92 (5958 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 15, 2011
Posts: 270

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
jae8908 wrote:
cracklover wrote:
Okay. It'll take some time to do right. But unless things get crazy at work, I should have it for you within the week.

GO

Did you succeed?

My bad - haven't made it a priority. Between work, climbing, and VDay, I've been busy. Will work on it today after work and see how far i get.

Thanks for the reminder.

GO
Good Luck!


tower_climber


Apr 4, 2012, 10:07 PM
Post #34 of 92 (5651 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 25, 2010
Posts: 157

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Did this thing ever happen?


moose_droppings


Apr 4, 2012, 10:30 PM
Post #35 of 92 (5645 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3348

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
I already know the answer to your question. You want to know it too, then you tell me the parameters you need.

GO

The parameters seem to get more rigid for each possible scenario offered up.


Partner cracklover


Apr 5, 2012, 9:01 AM
Post #36 of 92 (5576 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [tower_climber] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

tower_climber wrote:
Did this thing ever happen?

Sorry, I've been crazy busy. I'll try hard to get at least a few pics up today.

Charging camera battery now...

GO


squierbypetzl
Moderator

Apr 5, 2012, 6:42 PM
Post #37 of 92 (5505 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 6, 2005
Posts: 3431

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I'm curious to see the results.


Partner cracklover


Apr 6, 2012, 9:50 AM
Post #38 of 92 (5450 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [squierbypetzl] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

squierbypetzl wrote:
I'm curious to see the results.

Ha! Ya gotta love tempting fate. Of course I had to say I'll get to it today. Then all hell breaks loose at work, and I'm pulling 18 hour days. I *think* (knock on wood) I have all the fires put out, now. So, hopefully, today.

GO


ianmeister89


Apr 6, 2012, 2:16 PM
Post #39 of 92 (5398 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 18, 2009
Posts: 140

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post



-Ian


Partner cracklover


Apr 6, 2012, 3:35 PM
Post #40 of 92 (5377 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [ianmeister89] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

ianmeister89 wrote:
[image]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/18005541.jpg[/image]

-Ian

That literally made me LOL!

GO


Partner cracklover


Apr 6, 2012, 3:38 PM
Post #41 of 92 (5376 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Okay, so I tried photos, but they're meaningless. All it looks like is a rope unclipping from biners. So I had to go with video. I have no idea how well it will come out, since it's me operating the rope, and the video. But hopefully my explanations will be the main thing, and the video will just be explanatory.

The video is captured, but editing and loading may take some time...

GO


Partner cracklover


Apr 7, 2012, 7:46 AM
Post #42 of 92 (5320 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [dead_horse_flats] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

dead_horse_flats wrote:
This is a $40 offer to anyone who can demonstrate a scenario of the failure of a top rope anchor using two non-locking opposed biners at the power point.

Disclaimers.
1. Opposed means opposed.
2. No manually holding the biners to force the rope thru them.
3. No wrapping the rope around the biners unless you can create a situation where this could happen un-intentionally.
4. Failure means the rope escaped from BOTH biners. Both means both.
5. No theories, microfractures, CE marks, or alien abductions.

Prove it and I will mail you $40.

Okay, here ya go.

Note - this post is getting quite long, so I'm going to split it up into sections. Here's the first part....

Setup - anchor configuration:
------------------------------------
- Two non-locking wiregate oval biners, opposite and opposed, with gates facing down and out
- Static rope anchor, tied in a fig-8 knot on a bight.



Step one - biner location:
-----------------------------------
Two things have to happen, in no particular order:
- The gates wind up inside the spine of the other biner. When you jostle the biners around, the gates will always settle either inside or outside the spine of the other biner.
- The biners wind up sitting on the edge. A few things that could cause this are that one of the anchor points snags on something, shortening that arm, or that the anchor was set up poorly, such that when weighted, the biners are over the edge, but when some of the weight is released, the biners get pulled up onto it.



Step 2 - gate opens:
--------------------------------
If the edge is rough, the gate on the inner biner can get caught on even a small jut. Then a downward pull on the anchor can cause that gate to open. This can happen even without any sideways pull in the direction of the jut. Once the gate gets caught, the biners can rotate onto the bump on the rock, making it so that any force will cause the gate to open.


link to video 1

Let's step back for a second - Why should it matter all that much if, when the climber's weight comes off the anchor, it can wind up sitting on the edge, and then if the weight goes back on it, it causes the gate to open momentarily? After all, I'm sure plenty of you are thinking, the biners are plenty strong enough to hold a small toprope fall, even with one gate open. And if a fall on the anchor causes it to get pulled all the way back over the edge, the gate will close on its own.

All true!

But... what if there were something that could cause the rope to escape the biner while it's open? Well it turns out that, given the following scenario, that's exactly what can happen.

Read on...


(This post was edited by cracklover on Apr 7, 2012, 10:44 AM)


Partner cracklover


Apr 7, 2012, 10:06 AM
Post #43 of 92 (5288 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

... continued from last post.


Step 3 - rope gets caught in first biner
---------------------------------------------
If, while the gate is caught open on the rock, the climber goes up and to the right, the rope can get caught in the open gate.

Why would this happen? Well, perhaps the leader of the group, who set up the toprope, asks the person climbing to check on the anchor, noticing that the biners seem to be sitting on the edge. Perhaps they remembered seeing something that might snag one of the arms of the anchor up on the right.


link to video 2


Step 4 - rope escapes first biner
-------------------------------------
Once the rope is caught under the gate, I noticed two ways it can wind up getting pulled out completely. In this step, I'll demonstrate the first way.

With the climber still above and right of the anchor, the belayer takes in a couple of inches of slack.


link to video 3

Let's step back again and see where we are. Okay, so the climber is slightly above the anchor and to the right, and is now clipped into only one biner. Technically, they're still safe, though. And, because the other biner is oriented in the opposite direction, it cannot get levered open on that nub of rock no matter how much the climber thrashes around trying to fix the anchor. And even if it did, the rope running up and to the right would never wind up going through the open gate on the *left* side.

So let's say this climber doesn't notice what's happened (the anchor might be under his body) - he would lower safely to the ground. After all, both biners are still clipped to the power point, and unless he looks carefully, he might not see that one of the biners (remember, it's the bottom one, and might be slightly hidden by the top one) is not clipped to the rope. But again, he's still safe.

Now the next climber to go up on the TR is another story. Read on...


Partner cracklover


Apr 7, 2012, 10:39 AM
Post #44 of 92 (5277 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

... continued from last post.

Step 5 - Biners flip over
----------------------------
If the next climber to do the TR ties into the other end of the rope, something interesting can happen. If the second climber does the same thing as the first climber (going up and right of the anchor) - let's say because this climber hopes to fix the problem the first climber didn't, the biners can be flipped over when they climb over the anchor, and will orient themselves like they were in the beginning. Sorry, I didn't think to video this step, and I broke down my setup yesterday. But if you want, I can set it up again and video it.

Step 6 - rope escapes from second biner
-----------------------------------------------
In step 4 I showed one way that the rope, caught in the gate, can escape the biner completely when the belayer takes in a little slack. I mentioned that I had noticed a second way for the same thing to happen. In this step I'll show that second way. Of course in real life, either way could happen either time.

The second way the rope can escape the biner completely: If there is a little bit of tension on the belayer end of the rope (it only took a few pounds when I tried), and the climber moves up, the biner scrapes on the rock and gets held in place while the rope moves out of it. This shot shows the whole thing happening at once:

link to video 4

So there you go. In six steps, a scenario in which a toprope setup for a standard slingshot belay fails completely, leaving the climber on belay from below, but completely unanchored.

Cheers,

GO


Partner cracklover


Apr 7, 2012, 11:26 AM
Post #45 of 92 (5265 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 9973

Re: [dead_horse_flats] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post



Cheers!

GO


iknowfear


Apr 7, 2012, 11:55 AM
Post #46 of 92 (5259 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 8, 2004
Posts: 637

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

cracklover wrote:
[image]http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/18053429.jpg[/image]

Cheers!

GO

Fair and square win.

what are you going to spend your 40$ on?

Cheers,


billl7


Apr 7, 2012, 12:44 PM
Post #47 of 92 (5243 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1888

Re: [iknowfear] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

iknowfear wrote:
Fair and square win.

what are you going to spend your 40$ on?

Not so fast. I always thought that the definition of leading was climbing above the anchor. So, by definition, this is not a standard sling-shot belay.Tongue


healyje


Apr 7, 2012, 3:02 PM
Post #48 of 92 (5218 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4199

Re: [cracklover] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Two points of failure - a) don't use wiregates for TR anchors and b) never have a TR located where the rock can significantly impose on the biners.

Absent those points there are no circumstances where a TR of two opposed, non-locking biners is going to fail. The odds are about a billion to one better that you will die going to and from that TR anchor in your car.


Mark_Hudon


Apr 7, 2012, 8:26 PM
Post #49 of 92 (5180 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 6, 2010
Posts: 80

Re: [healyje] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Following my oath of "NO SNARK" I shall not make a comment.


healyje


Apr 7, 2012, 8:40 PM
Post #50 of 92 (5176 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4199

Re: [Mark_Hudon] $40 bet - two non-locking biner anchor failure. [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

Mark_Hudon wrote:
Following my oath of "NO SNARK" I shall not make a comment.

You are a prince of Snarklessness and should not dare a dimming of your true light...

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : The Lab

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook