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Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner.
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herites


Apr 9, 2012, 12:47 PM
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Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner.
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I was prepraing my gf for her first multipitch, and she asked me this: if you shouldn't clip the same half ropes to the same draw, because the two ropes have the chance to cut through each other, then can you redirect the belay through the same biner you put the clove hitch in. If the second falls and there's enough slack in the rope there's a chance that the rope will go taut over the clove hitch. This got me thinking. For now I told her to use guide mode or separate biners for the redirect and the clove.


Partner j_ung


Apr 9, 2012, 12:58 PM
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Re: [herites] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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herites wrote:
I was prepraing my gf for her first multipitch, and she asked me this: if you shouldn't clip the same half ropes to the same draw, because the two ropes have the chance to cut through each other, then can you redirect the belay through the same biner you put the clove hitch in. If the second falls and there's enough slack in the rope there's a chance that the rope will go taut over the clove hitch. This got me thinking. For now I told her to use guide mode or separate biners for the redirect and the clove.

You're correct. You should definitely NOT use the same biner to tie in to the anchor that you use to redirect the second's belay.


mikebee


Apr 11, 2012, 5:42 PM
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Re: [herites] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
For now I told her to use guide mode or separate biners for the redirect and the clove.

Good answer. In my opinion, there are very few circumstances when using a a redirect is preferable to guide mode. Other than possible comfort issues, I can't think of a single situation I wouldn't use guide mode.

Of course, if your anchor is suspect, then guide mode isn't a good idea, but then again, neither is a redirect.


redlude97


Apr 11, 2012, 6:15 PM
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Re: [mikebee] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:
In reply to:
For now I told her to use guide mode or separate biners for the redirect and the clove.

Good answer. In my opinion, there are very few circumstances when using a a redirect is preferable to guide mode. Other than possible comfort issues, I can't think of a single situation I wouldn't use guide mode.

Of course, if your anchor is suspect, then guide mode isn't a good idea, but then again, neither is a redirect.
I will use a redirect often instead of guide mode when I need to lower someone ie if they are working a section. Lowering in guide mode with guide/reverso leave quite a bit to be desired.


shotwell


Apr 11, 2012, 6:23 PM
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Re: [mikebee] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:
In reply to:
For now I told her to use guide mode or separate biners for the redirect and the clove.

Good answer. In my opinion, there are very few circumstances when using a a redirect is preferable to guide mode. Other than possible comfort issues, I can't think of a single situation I wouldn't use guide mode.

Of course, if your anchor is suspect, then guide mode isn't a good idea, but then again, neither is a redirect.

I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.' Are you really telling me you can't give a competent top rope belay without 'guide mode?' Use it if you wish, but don't pretend it is the end all, be all of top belaying.

rgold has railed on guide mode for years, and I feel the same way. I want a belayer that can quickly and easily manage the slack in both directions. I want a belayer that can lower me quickly and competently. I want a belayer that does more than take in the rope until I hit the anchor. And I want to be just as great a belayer for my second and I am when belaying a leader.

BTW, rgold now speaks about what he calls a modified harness belay which is building your anchor with the rope then belaying off the harness tie in loop. I see it a little differently, as it is primarily just an extended tail of the anchor that he belays off of. However, it puts the belay device in a familiar, comfortable position while still letting you belay off the anchor. I've already adjusted my primary top belay method thanks to Rich (and others.) I've heard of the method before, but it made a lot more sense to me the way Rich explained it. It works really well.


ensonik


Apr 11, 2012, 7:05 PM
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Re: [shotwell] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
BTW, rgold now speaks about what he calls a modified harness belay which is building your anchor with the rope then belaying off the harness tie in loop. I see it a little differently, as it is primarily just an extended tail of the anchor that he belays off of. However, it puts the belay device in a familiar, comfortable position while still letting you belay off the anchor. I've already adjusted my primary top belay method thanks to Rich (and others.) I've heard of the method before, but it made a lot more sense to me the way Rich explained it. It works really well.

Can you link to the thread you speak of. I'd be curious to understand what you're talking about.

Thx.


socalclimber


Apr 11, 2012, 7:09 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
mikebee wrote:
In reply to:
For now I told her to use guide mode or separate biners for the redirect and the clove.

Good answer. In my opinion, there are very few circumstances when using a a redirect is preferable to guide mode. Other than possible comfort issues, I can't think of a single situation I wouldn't use guide mode.

Of course, if your anchor is suspect, then guide mode isn't a good idea, but then again, neither is a redirect.
I will use a redirect often instead of guide mode when I need to lower someone ie if they are working a section. Lowering in guide mode with guide/reverso leave quite a bit to be desired.

First off, don't use "Guide" mode for inexperienced partners. Just have them redirect. As stated before, definitely do not use the same biner for both the clove and the redirect. If you are using a cordellete for the anchor, you can clip a biner through the front most strands ABOVE the power point. It's commonly referred to as the "Shelf" or "Top Shelf".

A simple belay redirect is quick, easy to setup, and easy to deal with. You're dealing with a first timer on multi-pitch. They don't need "Guide" mode. Let them get through the basics first.

Multi-pitch routes are intimidating enough without all the cute tricks, gadgets and gizmos.

There have been a number of bad accidents because beginners were using "Guide" mode. Belay stations are almost always the cause of slow parties, problems and epics for beginners.

Keep it simple, straight forward, and easy to inspect.


shotwell


Apr 11, 2012, 7:14 PM
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Re: [ensonik] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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ensonik wrote:
shotwell wrote:
BTW, rgold now speaks about what he calls a modified harness belay which is building your anchor with the rope then belaying off the harness tie in loop. I see it a little differently, as it is primarily just an extended tail of the anchor that he belays off of. However, it puts the belay device in a familiar, comfortable position while still letting you belay off the anchor. I've already adjusted my primary top belay method thanks to Rich (and others.) I've heard of the method before, but it made a lot more sense to me the way Rich explained it. It works really well.

Can you link to the thread you speak of. I'd be curious to understand what you're talking about.

Thx.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=2574244;#2574232


vinnie83


Apr 11, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Re: [herites] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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herites wrote:
if you shouldn't clip the same half ropes to the same draw, because the two ropes have the chance to cut through each other

Who told you that half ropes clipped through the same biner will cut each other? Half ropes are typically not clipped through the same biner because 1) it defeats the advantage of using half ropes and 2) two half ropes clipped through the same piece could increase the impact force in the event of a fall. Twin ropes are regularly clipped through the same biners with no adverse effect. I would recommend against routing a redirect through the same biner as a clove hitch because while you are dragging 100+ feet of rope through that biner there is a lot of wear being focused on a little bit of rope that forms the clove hitch.


dagibbs


Apr 12, 2012, 10:58 AM
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Re: [vinnie83] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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vinnie83 wrote:
herites wrote:
if you shouldn't clip the same half ropes to the same draw, because the two ropes have the chance to cut through each other

Who told you that half ropes clipped through the same biner will cut each other? Half ropes are typically not clipped through the same biner because 1) it defeats the advantage of using half ropes and 2) two half ropes clipped through the same piece could increase the impact force in the event of a fall. Twin ropes are regularly clipped through the same biners with no adverse effect.

Actually, half ropes clipped through the same biner do have a chance of sawing action & cutting one or both of the ropes if they have been previously clipped independently (which is the normal case for half ropes). Because the ropes take different routes to the climber, as the climber falls, they will (usually) come tight at different times, and one can easily run over the other under some tension -- which is when rope cuts rope.

(The points you give are the more common reasons -- but rope-on-rope movement is a valid concern as well.)

Twin ropes are clipped together because they are (in normal use) clipped into every biner together, and essentially treated as one rope. Because they take the same route to the climber, they will have the same slack, and come under tension at the same time -- so no (or minimal) rope-on-rope movement. (That twins are clipped together does not bear on whether or not halves are clipped together.)


bearbreeder


Apr 12, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Re: [dagibbs] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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Mammut, I was reading your ropes PDF on double/twin ropes. I own a set of your phoenix 8mm. My question is when using them is it acceptable to clip the first few pieces as twins and then split them as doubles mid pitch. Or should one only clip the as either doubles or twins the entire pitch.

---------

you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland,

Productmanager Climbing Equipment



dagibbs


Apr 12, 2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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bearbreeder wrote:

you had a question on your Mammut rope Phoenix 8mm and whether it can be used in twin and half rope technique in one single pitch. This is the case, you can always clip the two rope strands as twins, then split them as doubles, join again etc. This is exactly the advantage of half ropes compared to twin ropes where you always need to clip both ropes.

Hope this helps you,
best regards from Switzerland,

Productmanager Climbing Equipment

Together then split makes sense as ok (given the impact force will be low enough). But I don't understand why split, then together is ok -- but they're a rope manufacturer, I guess they must know what they're talking about.


potreroed


Apr 12, 2012, 12:26 PM
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Re: [herites] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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You definitely want to use a separate 'biner for the re-direct.


shimanilami


Apr 12, 2012, 7:33 PM
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Re: [shotwell] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
... I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.' Are you really telling me you can't give a competent top rope belay without 'guide mode?' Use it if you wish, but don't pretend it is the end all, be all of top belaying.

rgold has railed on guide mode for years, and I feel the same way. I want a belayer that can quickly and easily manage the slack in both directions. I want a belayer that can lower me quickly and competently. I want a belayer that does more than take in the rope until I hit the anchor. And I want to be just as great a belayer for my second and I am when belaying a leader ...

There is a device called a Gri-Gri that will change your religion.

Flame on.


(This post was edited by shimanilami on Apr 12, 2012, 7:38 PM)


sp115


Apr 12, 2012, 8:27 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
shotwell wrote:
... I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.' Are you really telling me you can't give a competent top rope belay without 'guide mode?' Use it if you wish, but don't pretend it is the end all, be all of top belaying.

rgold has railed on guide mode for years, and I feel the same way. I want a belayer that can quickly and easily manage the slack in both directions. I want a belayer that can lower me quickly and competently. I want a belayer that does more than take in the rope until I hit the anchor. And I want to be just as great a belayer for my second and I am when belaying a leader ...

There is a device called a Gri-Gri that will change your religion.

Flame on.

Since we're talking about half-ropes, why don't you tell us all about this new device?


mikebee


Apr 13, 2012, 1:10 AM
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Re: [shotwell] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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In reply to:
I will use a redirect often instead of guide mode when I need to lower someone ie if they are working a section. Lowering in guide mode with guide/reverso leave quite a bit to be desired.

I've not really ever had a friend "work" a section of a climb they're seconding. In my experience (certainly, in my area of climbing), "working" a route is either done on lead, or done on top rope through a slingshot belay, with the belayer comfortably standing or sitting on the ground.

I spose if someone was going to work a section of a route after I'd led it, and I was going to be lowering them a lot (and I didn't have my grigri with me for my top belay), then yes, I would too use a redirect instead of repeatedly lowering on guide mode. I still maintain that working a route on second is a weird practice though.

In reply to:
I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.'

How about being able to eat and drink or take photos while the second is climbing up because you can go hands free as needed?

In reply to:
Are you really telling me you can't give a competent top rope belay without 'guide mode?'

I never said that at all. I have done many top belays without guide mode (due to dodgy anchors in the mountains, or awkward belay positions), I just find that on the whole it is quite inferior.

I don't know about in the states, but in Australia, all the rockclimbing guiding and instructional bodies are recommending it as "best practice" for a typical multipitch climb, so there must be some people who agree it is superior.
It's gaining traction within the mountaineering community too, Mark Twight, for example, talks about it in Extreme Alpinism.

In reply to:
I want a belayer that can quickly and easily manage the slack in both directions. I want a belayer that can lower me quickly and competently.

Thats all good and well, but how often, in reality, do you ever find yourself getting lowered while seconding a pitch?

On the flip side, do you believe there is much to be gained by having a belayer who is out of the system? Meaning if they get hit by a rock, or pass out from dehydration then you are still safely attached to the anchor?
How about the benefits for guiding new climbers (or clients) when guide mode allows you to belay both climbers at the same time, or if you need to haul, a whole bunch of faffing around is skipped because your ratchet for the haul system is already in place.

In reply to:
First off, don't use "Guide" mode for inexperienced partners. ... You're dealing with a first timer on multi-pitch. They don't need "Guide" mode. Let them get through the basics first.

Are you talking about belaying a first timer up, or teaching a first timer how to set up an anchor at the end of a pitch they've led?

If you're belaying them, then it doesn't matter, I'd go with guide mode because I reckon its the safer, easier option.

If you're teaching them to trad climb, I'd hope that they'd have the mental capacity to pick up the rigging for guide mode reasonably quickly. Otherwise they may be struggling with a few other aspects of trad too.


sandstone


Apr 13, 2012, 6:03 AM
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shotwell wrote:
...I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.'...

Here's one: moving quickly (even as a team of three) on long climbs.

I can safely belay up two seconds simultaneously, while at the same time getting myself ready to lead the next pitch (drinking some water, eating a snack, adjusting clothes/gear). The time savings makes a big difference on long ice routes on short winter days, or on long alpine climbs.


shotwell


Apr 13, 2012, 6:33 AM
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shimanilami wrote:
shotwell wrote:
... I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.' Are you really telling me you can't give a competent top rope belay without 'guide mode?' Use it if you wish, but don't pretend it is the end all, be all of top belaying.

rgold has railed on guide mode for years, and I feel the same way. I want a belayer that can quickly and easily manage the slack in both directions. I want a belayer that can lower me quickly and competently. I want a belayer that does more than take in the rope until I hit the anchor. And I want to be just as great a belayer for my second and I am when belaying a leader ...

There is a device called a Gri-Gri that will change your religion.

Flame on.

I use a gri-gri for everything but multipitch climbs with half ropes.


blueeyedclimber


Apr 13, 2012, 6:34 AM
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Re: [mikebee] Clove hitch and belay redirect through the same masterpoint biner. [In reply to]
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mikebee wrote:

I don't know about in the states, but in Australia, all the rockclimbing guiding and instructional bodies are recommending it as "best practice" for a typical multipitch climb, so there must be some people who agree it is superior.
It's gaining traction within the mountaineering community too, Mark Twight, for example, talks about it in Extreme Alpinism.

I would say, for guiding, it IS best practice. But not necessarily for recreational climbing. I often use guide mode, but I wouldn't say it's my default mode. There are many situations where I feel something else is better. In a lot of situations (if not most), you can give a better, smoother belay to your second. Sometimes it makes a difference, sometimes how much better is negligible.

In reply to:
Thats all good and well, but how often, in reality, do you ever find yourself getting lowered while seconding a pitch?

That depends on what type of climbing you're doing. In the Gunks, many climbs leave a ledge and go over a crux roof. The second might have to be lowered back to the ledge to try again.

Josh


shotwell


Apr 13, 2012, 6:57 AM
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sandstone wrote:
shotwell wrote:
...I and many others never see a reason to use 'guide mode.'...

Here's one: moving quickly (even as a team of three) on long climbs.

I can safely belay up two seconds simultaneously, while at the same time getting myself ready to lead the next pitch (drinking some water, eating a snack, adjusting clothes/gear). The time savings makes a big difference on long ice routes on short winter days, or on long alpine climbs.

Fair enough. I don't climb with two seconds, so this didn't occur to me.


notapplicable


Apr 13, 2012, 7:39 AM
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mikebee wrote:
How about being able to eat and drink or take photos while the second is climbing up because you can go hands free as needed?

While belaying seconds in guide mode may be considered a "best practice" in Australia, I certainly hope ^that^ is not.


shimanilami


Apr 13, 2012, 7:50 AM
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sp115 wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
There is a device called a Gri-Gri that will change your religion.

Flame on.

Since we're talking about half-ropes, why don't you tell us all about this new device?

I will concede that with half-ropes, you're screwed(unless, of course, you have two Gri-Gris).


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