I, and all of my partners, do checks before leaving the ground (actually, we tend to do checks of some sort throughout the climb, but I digress). Since all of my partners use the F8 then that makes it easier for them to check my knot and vice-versa. A F8 looks the same depending one slightly different finish (if one tucks the strand back in or not), whereas a bowline can look quite different depending on the variation. If a partner doesn't recognize the difference between the variations then the partner may have a difficult time verifying that the knot was tied properly.

Whether you agree with checks or not is irrelevant, I think they're good and I think it's easier to check a knot that is more common than a knot that is less common with many variations. For example, when I climb with someone who ties in with a bowline, I tell them that I can't check it (because I have neither seen or tied one in a long time). If they're fine, great, but I prefer to be able to check the knot.

Both me and my main climbing partner always tie in with a bowline. We also always double check each other. It goes like this:

- "do you have a good knot?"
- partner looks down at his knot...."yup"

I don't need to inspect my partner's knot, I trust that my climbing partners know what their knot is supossed to look like.

You'd have saved me a lot off typing if you had said that in the first place.

Jay

Sorry. I thought it was implied.

Both me and my main climbing partner always tie in with a bowline. We also always double check each other. It goes like this:

- "do you have a good knot?"
- partner looks down at his knot...."yup"

I don't need to inspect my partner's knot, I trust that my climbing partners know what their knot is supossed to look like.

This might work for you but it's not good advice. In climbing it is dangerous to "assume" anything and best to double-check for yourself.

Sorry. I thought it was implied.

I trust they know what it's supposed to look like, too, but I don't believe we're perfect and I don't want to be the guy whose partner decked from not finishing the knot. I think the following conversation would be lame:

- what happened?
- my partner decked, has a broken fibia, and won't climb for six months at least.
- what happened?
- he didn't finish his knot.

Both me and my main climbing partner always tie in with a bowline. We also always double check each other. It goes like this:

- "do you have a good knot?"
- partner looks down at his knot...."yup"

I don't need to inspect my partner's knot, I trust that my climbing partners know what their knot is supossed to look like.

"...is this why there are so many people opposed to the knot?

Verifying any bowline variant, aside from those that butcher the visual like the yos finish, should be easy to pattern check looking for the essentials of the knot - i.e. it shouldn't be any form of big memory act or rocket science. It's either making a proper bight or it's not.

What do you do when you climb with someone who uses a bow line? I too find them hard to check on another person (though I know what a good vs bad bowline looks like when I look down at my own and can do so with little effort).

As I can see it you either get up close and personal for the inspection, tell them you'll only climb with them if they use a figure 8 or you trust them to do an second inspection of their own knot. I guess if you're not comfortable with your partner assessing his knot by themselves a bowline would be an issue....is this why there are so many people opposed to the knot?

Jay, the rethreaded version solves both concerns you mention: it retains the classic form of the knot and whether it's tied in a standard or Dutch variant, It remains strong, redundant and is easily inspected.

A bowline on a bight and a rethreaded bowline have the same form but are tied differently.

That's not exactly right. A bowline on a bight is just that - a single bowline tied with a bight of rope. You end up with a tail that is a loop, and generally this is clipped off. It can be useful for tying into the middle of a rope, but it's super bulky.

The rethreaded bowline is just that. You need a free end that, ultimately, is left as a single tail. It is far neater once tied.

That's not exactly right. A bowline on a bight is just that - a single bowline tied with a bight of rope. You end up with a tail that is a loop, and generally this is clipped off. It can be useful for tying into the middle of a rope, but it's super bulky.

The rethreaded bowline is just that. You need a free end that, ultimately, is left as a single tail. It is far neater once tied.

In an uncharacteristically good post, Rescueman showed how understanding the components of a bowline can help in checking the knot.

Still, bowlines are harder to inspect than figure-8s. One reason, I think, is that any mistake in tying the figure-8 ruins its symmetry, which is noticeable at a glance. The bowline, in contrast, isn't symmetrical, whether correctly tied or not, so an improperly tied bowline isn't glaringly obvious, the way a figure-8 is.

Secondly, to properly inspect a bowline, the climber should be able to spot the subtle difference between the standard bowline (on the left in the figure below) and the Dutch bowline (right), which is generally thought of as unsuitable as a tie-in knot.

Finally, many finishes make the bowline harder to see, and at least one variation, the water bowline, which one of my partners ties in with, looks like a total rats nest.

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Standard_bowline_vs_cowboy_bowline.svg/350px-Standard_bowline_vs_cowboy_bowline.svg.png[/img]

Jay

I tie-in with a double bowline, and back it up with a single bowline (pictured below). The reason I don't use a rethreaded bowline or Joe's Czech finish is that I prefer a finish that leaves the tail along the loop, where it is out of the way, rather than along the standing end.