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VertFlirt
Apr 17, 2012, 12:34 AM
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i hear there have been a few reports of link cams braking...
here is another one.
in skaha last week my buddy fell about 5-8 feet onto a link cam, it broke and he hit the deck.
-it was the yellow link cam
-one of the inner lobes broke at the pivot point closest to the head/stem of the cam.
-i cannot speak for how well the cam was placed, or what direction it was placed in, it was my first time climbing with him and he didnt remember much other then a yellow camalot would have also fit, therefore the link was not cammed on the smaller lobes..
i recommend that people dont use these cams.
cheers
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shotwell
Apr 17, 2012, 12:59 AM
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VertFlirt wrote: i hear there have been a few reports of link cams braking... here is another one. in skaha last week my buddy fell about 5-8 feet onto a link cam, it broke and he hit the deck. -it was the yellow link cam -one of the inner lobes broke at the pivot point closest to the head/stem of the cam. -i cannot speak for how well the cam was placed, or what direction it was placed in, it was my first time climbing with him and he didnt remember much other then a yellow camalot would have also fit, therefore the link was not cammed on the smaller lobes.. i recommend that people dont use these cams. cheers
Doing a simple search would show you that there are known failure modes for the Link Cam. If you're not aware of the potential failure modes for all of your climbing gear (which ALL gear has), you probably need to do some more research.
I understand that you weren't the person who fell on the cam, but it does seem like the neither you nor the owner were aware of the proper and improper usage of the device. If the piece was placed in a known failure mode (i.e. pivoting when loaded) this accident is equivalent to holding down the cam on a GriGri. User error. Regardless, Omega Pacific should be contacted to make sure that this breakage is consistent with the known failure modes and not a defect.
As far as your recommendation goes? I recommend you learn how to properly assess accident information or take up a different activity. Harsh as that statement is, you clearly don't understand how to properly assess what can and does go wrong in climbing. In this case, you have none of the information required to figure out how to protect yourself in the future. Your 'solution' is to not use a piece of gear you don't understand. Here's news for you though; climbing gear manufacturer's will continue to innovate. You'll still fail to learn how to use new equipment and experience equipment failure you could have been aware of.
The situation I describe is even mentioned on the main advertising page for the Link Cam: http://www.omegapac.com/...oducts_linkcams.html
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healyje
Apr 17, 2012, 1:59 AM
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Link Cams aren't a 'regular' or 'normal' cam - if you attempt to use it the same way as one, or if you don't understand the limitations of the device, you either shouldn't be using it or you are going to be hurt sooner or later.
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notapplicable
Apr 17, 2012, 3:07 AM
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shotwell wrote: VertFlirt wrote: i hear there have been a few reports of link cams braking... here is another one. in skaha last week my buddy fell about 5-8 feet onto a link cam, it broke and he hit the deck. -it was the yellow link cam -one of the inner lobes broke at the pivot point closest to the head/stem of the cam. -i cannot speak for how well the cam was placed, or what direction it was placed in, it was my first time climbing with him and he didnt remember much other then a yellow camalot would have also fit, therefore the link was not cammed on the smaller lobes.. i recommend that people dont use these cams. cheers Doing a simple search would show you that there are known failure modes for the Link Cam. If you're not aware of the potential failure modes for all of your climbing gear (which ALL gear has), you probably need to do some more research. I understand that you weren't the person who fell on the cam, but it does seem like the neither you nor the owner were aware of the proper and improper usage of the device. If the piece was placed in a known failure mode (i.e. pivoting when loaded) this accident is equivalent to holding down the cam on a GriGri. User error. Regardless, Omega Pacific should be contacted to make sure that this breakage is consistent with the known failure modes and not a defect. As far as your recommendation goes? I recommend you learn how to properly assess accident information or take up a different activity. Harsh as that statement is, you clearly don't understand how to properly assess what can and does go wrong in climbing. In this case, you have none of the information required to figure out how to protect yourself in the future. Your 'solution' is to not use a piece of gear you don't understand. Here's news for you though; climbing gear manufacturer's will continue to innovate. You'll still fail to learn how to use new equipment and experience equipment failure you could have been aware of. The situation I describe is even mentioned on the main advertising page for the Link Cam: http://www.omegapac.com/...oducts_linkcams.html
Very well said.
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bearbreeder
Apr 17, 2012, 4:20 AM
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ive fallen on all my 4 links ... ive fallen or had people fall on my purple link 20+ times above the gear .. every time ive placed the cam in the direction of the pull as much as possible .. its held every time so far
who knows ... i might die ... but i try not to rely exclusively on a single piece of pro ... and i try to put a draw on my links or any other cam that im worried about walking ...
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VertFlirt
Apr 17, 2012, 6:36 AM
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hello
i have lost faith in these cams. my opinion is they have too many moving parts, witch makes them weaker.
i would like every climber to be aware that these cams do brake under special conditions, thats y im posting.
please note i did mention i cant speak for how the cam was placed, or what DIRECTION it was placed in...
my recomendation is based on my opinion, perhaps a little rash, but not everyone has to follow my recomendations.
it was a vertical crack, i dont know if the cam was placed with a horizontal stem, that is very possible.
an honest question, how many ppl have heard of any other cams braking under these circumstances???
im really not interested in a pissing match about how much i/you know about gear and proper usage, i just feel these cams are weak, agian thats just my opinion
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jt512
Apr 17, 2012, 6:50 AM
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VertFlirt wrote: hello i have lost faith in these cams. my opinion is they have too many moving parts, witch makes them weaker. i would like every climber to be aware that these cams do brake under special conditions, thats y im posting. please note i did mention i cant speak for how the cam was placed, or what DIRECTION it was placed in... my recomendation is based on my opinion, perhaps a little rash, but not everyone has to follow my recomendations. it was a vertical crack, i dont know if the cam was placed with a horizontal stem, that is very possible. an honest question, how many ppl have heard of any other cams braking under these circumstances??? im really not interested in a pissing match about how much i/you know about gear and proper usage, i just feel these cams are weak, agian thats just my opinion
Learn to write like a grown-up.
*plonk*
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healyje
Apr 17, 2012, 7:50 AM
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VertFlirt wrote: ...how many ppl have heard of any other cams br[e]aking under these circumstances
Which part of - 'these aren't like "any other cams"' didn't you understand?
Making a judgment to not use these cams is no better than a judgment to use them when either is made without bothering to understand the trade-offs involved with such an unusual design.
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USnavy
Apr 17, 2012, 10:45 AM
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I have to agree with VertFlirt to some extent. I have also had rather bad luck with the Link Cams. I have never had one break, but I have had them pull a number of times in seemingly solid placements, and I am aware of the risks involved in sideways loading and the like. Two of my partners, who are 5.12 trad climbers, complain about the same issues I complain about regarding them. They just dont feel that bomber. Whenever I place a Link Cam and yank on the stem, they always seem to slip a bit before they grab. I do not have that issue with any other brand of cams. The more experienced of the two climbers I referenced above took a big fall on the Zodiac of El Cap because the .5 Link Cam pulled on body weight in a no-brainier C1 placement. The only time I really use them anymore is on aid when I need to leap frog a cam up a C1 crack or to build an anchor. I dont really use them anymore for lead protection unless I am completely out of other options.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 17, 2012, 10:52 AM)
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healyje
Apr 17, 2012, 11:47 AM
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In reply to: I do not have that issue with any other brand of cams.
And again I repeat - they aren't like any other brand of cams.
And even among 5.12 climbers really sound judgment around placing gear is still something that runs way under 50% so that doesn't tell me much. If you have trouble placing them then you probably shouldn't be using them - stick with conventional cams.
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guangzhou
Apr 17, 2012, 11:57 AM
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I only have two Link Cams, fallen on both several time and never had an issue. I have to agree, they are not like other cams.
I broke a Number 3 Camelot once, kicked the placement when I climbed passed, did a move so I could place a new piece and fell in the process.
When I kicked the Camelot, it pivoted horizontally, when I fell, it didn't pivot back, instead the cams collapsed. A nut a body length below caught me. I still use Camelots because I know it was the placement of the cam, after kicking it, not the cam.
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j_ung
Apr 17, 2012, 11:59 AM
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VertFlirt wrote: i hear there have been a few reports of link cams braking... here is another one. in skaha last week my buddy fell about 5-8 feet onto a link cam, it broke and he hit the deck. -it was the yellow link cam -one of the inner lobes broke at the pivot point closest to the head/stem of the cam. -i cannot speak for how well the cam was placed, or what direction it was placed in, it was my first time climbing with him and he didnt remember much other then a yellow camalot would have also fit, therefore the link was not cammed on the smaller lobes.. i recommend that people dont use these cams. cheers
I think you're making a wise choice. As mentioned, Link Cams aren't a normal piece of gear, and shouldn't be treated as such. If you feel you don't want to accept the responsibility that comes with using them, then don't. Plain and simple.
I also recommend that people who don't understand them find another cam to rack.
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patto
Apr 17, 2012, 12:36 PM
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I understand the limitations of link cams and consequently I have no desire to own them or climb with them.
They are a cam with exceptional range and if that is what you need or desire then nothing else comes close.
I, like others, do object to the total dismissal of them by others when they fail from misuse.
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sungam
Apr 17, 2012, 12:38 PM
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What everyone is saying is correct. Link cams aren't normal gear, and can't be disposed of like normal gear. They are more like batteries - they have to be destroyed in a special way by a qualified individual.
Luckily, I am once such individual. So if you just mail all your links cams straight over to me, I'll make sure they get taken care of correctly.
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dynosore
Apr 17, 2012, 2:00 PM
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VertFlirt wrote: i hear there have been a few reports of link cams braking... here is another one. in skaha last week my buddy fell about 5-8 feet onto a link cam, it broke and he hit the deck. -it was the yellow link cam -one of the inner lobes broke at the pivot point closest to the head/stem of the cam. -i cannot speak for how well the cam was placed, or what direction it was placed in, it was my first time climbing with him and he didnt remember much other then a yellow camalot would have also fit, therefore the link was not cammed on the smaller lobes.. i recommend that people dont use these cams. cheers
Your post reminds me...I cannot recommend ATC style devices. My friend "no hands" Stan was belaying me and dropped me with one of these. That's never happened when he uses a grigri. Therefore, ATC = bad, grigri = good, and there cannot be any other factor involved that I'm missing......
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marc801
Apr 17, 2012, 2:19 PM
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USnavy wrote: The more experienced of the two climbers I referenced above took a big fall on the Zodiac of El Cap because the .5 Link Cam pulled on body weight in a no-brainier C1 placement.
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bill413
Apr 17, 2012, 2:49 PM
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VertFlirt wrote: hello i have lost faith in these cams.
Sufficient reason for you not to use them. If you don't trust the gear you're on, you really shouldn't climb on it.
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2012, 3:48 PM
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I have to say, some of you guys are pretty harsh on this guy who is reporting a link cam breakage.
fact is, if you see one break it will destroy your confidence in these things. The limitations of the pieces are so dramatic as to make them nearly worthless.
You think you always place your cams so they never pivot? Yeah, you're wrong. I broke one when the cam arm hung up on a small crystal.
All those statements in the legalese attached to the Links when new weren't there initially. These cams were aggressively marketed as 'the cure for panic' and only after guys started hitting the ground and the cams frequently broke. THere have been more Link cam failures than alien failures.
Personally, it's hard to believe that links are still made and sold when they continue to be 'improperly used' as some of you guys like to put it.
Its too bad because Omega is a generally good company, but I think they are just too committed to the Link.
vertflirt, thanks for posting. I think it is important to get this info out there.
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shotwell
Apr 17, 2012, 4:06 PM
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caughtinside wrote: I have to say, some of you guys are pretty harsh on this guy who is reporting a link cam breakage. fact is, if you see one break it will destroy your confidence in these things. The limitations of the pieces are so dramatic as to make them nearly worthless. You think you always place your cams so they never pivot? Yeah, you're wrong. I broke one when the cam arm hung up on a small crystal. All those statements in the legalese attached to the Links when new weren't there initially. These cams were aggressively marketed as 'the cure for panic' and only after guys started hitting the ground and the cams frequently broke. THere have been more Link cam failures than alien failures. Personally, it's hard to believe that links are still made and sold when they continue to be 'improperly used' as some of you guys like to put it. Its too bad because Omega is a generally good company, but I think they are just too committed to the Link. vertflirt, thanks for posting. I think it is important to get this info out there.
Actually, I don't use Link Cams either. Mainly because I know that I'll place them in an orientation that ends in a meat bomb.
That being said, I disagree with the OP making a blanket recommendation that people shouldn't use these cams. If you're comfortable with the limitations of the device, you should. I ripped him because it seemed he and his partner were taken totally by surprise by these limitations.
As I said to the OP, all gear has these limitations. When 'cleaning up the mess' simply involves picking up the broken pieces and some bruises, no big deal. When it involves picking up a broken human, it matters. I was harsh because all climbers need to be fully aware of the proper and improper use of equipment. The consequences are too great, and in this case the information is readily available.
I remember the initial series of breakages, before Omega even knew about this failure mode. I made the decision at that time not to use the Link Cam based on a clear understanding of how and why they break. I didn't need to see one break to lose faith in it, I knew it wouldn't work for my climbing.
All this said, I also remember a tragic accident involving Cinch misuse. Because I didn't understand WHY this accident happened I went out and bought a Cinch. I practiced with it, learned its limitations, and figured out its failure modes. I don't use the Cinch anymore, as I found it didn't match well with my climbing or belaying style. However, at least I understand what can go wrong with it.
The same holds true for a GriGri, an ATC, any cam, a nut, a carabiner, etc. Everything can fail. Knowing when it might helps me make the choices I do about what gear to purchase and how I use it.
I don't think I'm immune to accidents despite making every effort to learn about my equipment. There may come a day that I discover a new failure mode for something I use. I might make a mistake. I hope that never happens, but I've accepted the consequences of my actions and decision making processes.
Also, this information is out there. I linked the main product page for the Link Cam up thread. It tells you specifically that you will break a Link Cam that pivots. Again, I don't use them because I don't think my real world climbing will avoid all situations where the cams might pivot. If you understand how and why they fail you can make your own decisions. That was my only point.
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bearbreeder
Apr 17, 2012, 4:10 PM
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i see more reports of blown metollius 0 and 00 cams than links ...
who knows ... maybe they werent "placed" properly, maybe its the limitations of the gear ... at least one person however didnt even fall on it ...
http://www.mountainproject.com/...n-cam-stop/107129489
i personally blew out a purple TCU 0 cam in what i thought was a good placement ... the cam stops inverted and the cam was unusable
im not running around saying they are "unsafe" ... no gear is perfectly safe
i will say this ... my purple link cam is my most fallen on cam ... and i havent died yet ...
if you want to be a "safe" (whatever that is) trad climber, dont depend on a single piece of gear unless you have no choice ... as the gear can pull, the rock can break, etc ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Apr 17, 2012, 4:12 PM)
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2012, 5:00 PM
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shotwell wrote: the OP making a blanket recommendation that people shouldn't use these cams.
I am comfortable with that recommendation.
You blew a lot of hot air up there about all sorts of nonsense but the cams just have too many limitations. You can't do this. You can't do that. If only trad climbing were so straightforward.
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caughtinside
Apr 17, 2012, 5:06 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: i see more reports of blown metollius 0 and 00 cams than links ... who knows ... maybe they werent "placed" properly, maybe its the limitations of the gear ... at least one person however didnt even fall on it ... http://www.mountainproject.com/...n-cam-stop/107129489 i personally blew out a purple TCU 0 cam in what i thought was a good placement ... the cam stops inverted and the cam was unusable im not running around saying they are "unsafe" ... no gear is perfectly safe i will say this ... my purple link cam is my most fallen on cam ... and i havent died yet ... if you want to be a "safe" (whatever that is) trad climber, dont depend on a single piece of gear unless you have no choice ... as the gear can pull, the rock can break, etc ...
That's nice. I think Metolius was foolish to put cam stops on those things anyway. If they aren't full strength what is the point? The old ones don't have cam stops... because they are worthless.
Glad to hear your Link is catching your falls. I hope it stays that way. This Link cam caught zero falls.
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bearbreeder
Apr 17, 2012, 5:25 PM
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what i do find interesting is that REI is still selling them and MEC up here is carrying them now ...
maybe its all gumbies buying them ... maybe no one ever falls on em ...
but i find it most interesting that the 2 retailers in US and canada best known for their no questions asked warranty is willing to carry em ... and live with all the possible returns ...
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jt512
Apr 17, 2012, 5:44 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: i see more reports of blown metollius 0 and 00 cams than links ... who knows ... maybe they werent "placed" properly ... i personally blew out a purple TCU 0 cam in what i thought was a good placement ... the cam stops inverted and the cam was unusable
Then you thought wrong. The cam was placed improperly.
Jay
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bearbreeder
Apr 17, 2012, 5:51 PM
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blah blah blah .. im jt512 ... i can tell gear placement over the internet
theres someone on the MP post that supposedly never weight a purple mastercam ... and the cam stops broke ...
perhaps youd care to tell him he cant place gear properly ... he likely climbs more trad than both of us combined ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Apr 17, 2012, 5:55 PM)
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