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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:01 AM
Post #35151 of 43082
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notapplicable wrote: Greggle wrote: notapplicable wrote: Just finished a way sickrad day of granite crack climbing. Broke down the anchor and did some super sketchy summit scrambling well after dark and didn't get back home till 01:30 a.m. Twas a good day. Per your signature... "Babies are the worlds most efficient fun killing machines." There is a startling lack of punctuation here. Let's consider the options: Babies are the world's most efficient, fun-killing machines. Or... Babies are the world's most efficient, fun, killing machines. Please to clarify? #1 is what I meant, #2 is good though.
I actually thought it was number 2.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:07 AM
Post #35152 of 43082
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erisspirit wrote: skiing at San jacinto was great! really nice conditions. I also learned how to do kick turns. I did however manage to do a number on my ankle on a fall that really shouldn't have been that bad. I haven't been happy with my boots (bought because they were stuuupid cheap) and after somehow tweaking my ankle horribly in them everyone is rooting for me to get new ones :P doh! I'm supposed to go to mammoth next week... If my ankle is functioning then I might demo some nicer boots. I was being hard on myself for my crappy skiing... the BF had to point out to me that I'm on day 7 of skiing and day 2 of back country. So I guess I can't expect to be all that great yet  So now I'm having some scotch... it heals ankles right?
BF is right.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:08 AM
Post #35153 of 43082
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erisspirit wrote: skiing at San jacinto was great! really nice conditions. I also learned how to do kick turns. I did however manage to do a number on my ankle on a fall that really shouldn't have been that bad. I haven't been happy with my boots (bought because they were stuuupid cheap) and after somehow tweaking my ankle horribly in them everyone is rooting for me to get new ones :P doh! I'm supposed to go to mammoth next week... If my ankle is functioning then I might demo some nicer boots. I was being hard on myself for my crappy skiing... the BF had to point out to me that I'm on day 7 of skiing and day 2 of back country. So I guess I can't expect to be all that great yet So now I'm having some scotch... it heals ankles right?
Single Malt heals everything.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:09 AM
Post #35154 of 43082
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This is why I always keep a flask in my first aid kit.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:12 AM
Post #35155 of 43082
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donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. 
On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed. 
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:18 AM
Post #35156 of 43082
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edge wrote: sungam wrote: edge wrote: edge wrote: Overheard in the produce section of the local grocery store. A mother addresses her two year old who is sitting in the cart: "Oh Elizabeth, the grapes don't look very good today." To which Elizabeth replies,very matter of factly: "I pooped." That, and making an elk hide drum, are the highlights of my day thus far. The 23" powwow drum that I made on saturday, western red cedar and elk rawhide. Today I made a cedar stand for it and the first coat of spar varnish is drying now. This is the first of two drums that I made this weekend, the other being a 15" hand drum for a client. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/loransmith/DSCN7099.jpg[/IMG] Alas, no pictures of Elizabeth pooping in the produce aisle. Cool drum. I take it that you haven't played it yet by the carnish not being done comment. When you do, I think you should post a vid so we can hear it's sound. I think it looks great, but I'm really curious if it sounds as nice as it looks.  I don't wanna give you too much credit for an ugly sounding drum  And we all completely forgive you for not having poop-pics. No, I said the varnish was drying on the stand... Since the rawhide on the drum was so thick, and it was an enclosed cylinder, it took about 36 hours to dry and was ready to play Monday morning. It sounds amazing, but benefits from having a stand that suspends both drum heads in the air and keeps the bottom off the ground. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/loransmith/DSCN7100.jpg[/IMG] I don't really know how to rotate the vid, and I am not going to go reshoot with the camera horizontally, but you can get an idea here. Due to ambient noises and being outside, the vid doesn't really capture the amazing overtones and reverb of the drum. When it is played, the vibrations resonate right through your arm and chest, which is pretty cool. The thing with a rawhide drum is that it changes with fluxuations in humidity, so will sound deeper in sticky weather and higher in dry weather. This can be mitigated somewhat by placing it in the sun for a few minutes or hitting it briefly with a hair drier, or misting it slightly with water. Usually you can find various "sweet" spots on the head to avoid doing this whatever the humidity. http://smg.photobucket.com/...current=DSCN7101.mp4
That does sound nice. Bravo. I'm rightly impressed.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 8:20 AM
Post #35157 of 43082
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sungam
Apr 17, 2012, 8:54 AM
Post #35158 of 43082
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edge wrote: sungam wrote: edge wrote: edge wrote: Overheard in the produce section of the local grocery store. A mother addresses her two year old who is sitting in the cart: "Oh Elizabeth, the grapes don't look very good today." To which Elizabeth replies,very matter of factly: "I pooped." That, and making an elk hide drum, are the highlights of my day thus far. The 23" powwow drum that I made on saturday, western red cedar and elk rawhide. Today I made a cedar stand for it and the first coat of spar varnish is drying now. This is the first of two drums that I made this weekend, the other being a 15" hand drum for a client. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/loransmith/DSCN7099.jpg[/IMG] Alas, no pictures of Elizabeth pooping in the produce aisle. Cool drum. I take it that you haven't played it yet by the carnish not being done comment. When you do, I think you should post a vid so we can hear it's sound. I think it looks great, but I'm really curious if it sounds as nice as it looks. I don't wanna give you too much credit for an ugly sounding drum And we all completely forgive you for not having poop-pics. No, I said the varnish was drying on the stand... Since the rawhide on the drum was so thick, and it was an enclosed cylinder, it took about 36 hours to dry and was ready to play Monday morning. It sounds amazing, but benefits from having a stand that suspends both drum heads in the air and keeps the bottom off the ground. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/loransmith/DSCN7100.jpg[/IMG] I don't really know how to rotate the vid, and I am not going to go reshoot with the camera horizontally, but you can get an idea here. Due to ambient noises and being outside, the vid doesn't really capture the amazing overtones and reverb of the drum. When it is played, the vibrations resonate right through your arm and chest, which is pretty cool. The thing with a rawhide drum is that it changes with fluxuations in humidity, so will sound deeper in sticky weather and higher in dry weather. This can be mitigated somewhat by placing it in the sun for a few minutes or hitting it briefly with a hair drier, or misting it slightly with water. Usually you can find various "sweet" spots on the head to avoid doing this whatever the humidity. http://smg.photobucket.com/...current=DSCN7101.mp4
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sungam
Apr 17, 2012, 8:55 AM
Post #35159 of 43082
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Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed.
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donald949
Apr 17, 2012, 9:04 AM
Post #35160 of 43082
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sungam wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. The waterfalls sound cool. Not really yhe expected death valley experience, I guess. I distinctly remember pissing my name into the sand in death valley and having the "m" and half the "a" evaporate before I finished the "s". Crazy shit. I think it was 115-120 that day. We didn't check out any canyons, or really leave the car at all. We did, however, pass a dude on a lay-down bicycle while a trailer full of water that was biking across the valley that day. WTF. At least he had a sun umbrella. We just stopped by one of the towns for a moment, I remember thinking it was pretty neat. I figure a mix of our experiences would have been best. Hoit enough to find out why it is "death" valley, but also being able to, you know, leave the car.
Otherwise, this was our first trip to DV, and we enjoyed it entirely. Hiking the slot canyon was cool. Not really a very narrow slot, and was an easy walk, all my kids did it easy. But very cool none the less. More to come.
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donald949
Apr 17, 2012, 9:11 AM
Post #35161 of 43082
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sungam wrote: donald949 wrote: climbingtrash wrote: sungam wrote: climbingtrash wrote: donald949 wrote: sungam wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: I drop... PTFTW's like bombs. Zomg, 100 points to whoever can find out why that phrase brought a close up of Angry's crotch in tight lycra to the forefront of my mind. Casue it wuz misty's song for angry. About her dropping names like bombs. I forget why they were upset with each other. I kinda helped start awl that. Hehe, yes you did. I was vaguely involved as well, but just via shit talking both parties into escalation ^.^ Was strange how quickly awl that became a shit show. I don't even remember what it wuz awl about. But I do remember her *music* We were making a list of the hottest climbers. I put her on the list last because of the way I wrote it, it wasn't ranked. Then she was all "If I'm going to be last on your list then I don't want to be on it at all" and then everyone trolled her hard, and laffs were had by all. Curt, however, didn't seem to find the "little blue pill" joke entirely amusing, though. To be fair, it was a little over the joke line and into the realm of nasty personal attack.
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donald949
Apr 17, 2012, 9:13 AM
Post #35162 of 43082
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Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed.
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erisspirit
Apr 17, 2012, 9:16 AM
Post #35164 of 43082
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Lazlo wrote: This is why I always keep a flask in my first aid kit.
I should follow this example
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donald949
Apr 17, 2012, 9:49 AM
Post #35166 of 43082
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donald949 wrote: sungam wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. The waterfalls sound cool. Not really yhe expected death valley experience, I guess. I distinctly remember pissing my name into the sand in death valley and having the "m" and half the "a" evaporate before I finished the "s". Crazy shit. I think it was 115-120 that day. We didn't check out any canyons, or really leave the car at all. We did, however, pass a dude on a lay-down bicycle while a trailer full of water that was biking across the valley that day. WTF. At least he had a sun umbrella. We just stopped by one of the towns for a moment, I remember thinking it was pretty neat. I figure a mix of our experiences would have been best. Hoit enough to find out why it is "death" valley, but also being able to, you know, leave the car. Well, having been to the desert plenty of times in 100+ weather, I'm kind of over it. We often drive through that kind of weather to get where we're headed. We do enjoy the desert in mild weather. Otherwise, this was our first trip to DV, and we enjoyed it entirely. Hiking the slot canyon was cool. Not really a very narrow slot, and was an easy walk, all my kids did it easy. But very cool none the less. More to come.
http://www.panamintcity.com/...mountain/mosaic.html
Hopefully in a couple days we'll get our own pics up on FB.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 12:49 PM
Post #35167 of 43082
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sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed. At first I was like "-5? Getting nippy." Then I remembered you were in the US...
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 12:50 PM
Post #35168 of 43082
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donald949 wrote: Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed. Whitney again?
Yep. Shasta this weekend.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 12:51 PM
Post #35169 of 43082
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sungam
Apr 17, 2012, 1:27 PM
Post #35170 of 43082
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Lazlo wrote: sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed. At first I was like "-5? Getting nippy." Then I remembered you were in the US... I'm not sure exactly what you mean. -5 c = 27f, no?
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 3:25 PM
Post #35172 of 43082
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sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed. At first I was like "-5? Getting nippy." Then I remembered you were in the US... I'm not sure exactly what you mean. -5 c = 27f, no? Aye, exactly. I meant at first I was like "-5*C? Not too bad" but then I realized you meant -5*F, since you are in the USA, which is -20*C, considerably colder then I initially thought.
Ah. Gotcha. There was also a 20 mph wind chill. Not too bad, but still.
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Lazlo
Apr 17, 2012, 3:29 PM
Post #35173 of 43082
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sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: [image]https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/575750_3145255905295_1081922301_2889420_1980863853_n.jpg[/image] Are there many routes on the face? How hard are they? I can't tell if it's steep as fook or just steep.
There are several routes on the face. The ones I know of are between 5.6 and 5.10. It is steep on the main face.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...Whitney/Mt__Whitney/
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Gmburns2000
Apr 17, 2012, 5:22 PM
Post #35174 of 43082
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edge wrote: sungam wrote: edge wrote: edge wrote: Overheard in the produce section of the local grocery store. A mother addresses her two year old who is sitting in the cart: "Oh Elizabeth, the grapes don't look very good today." To which Elizabeth replies,very matter of factly: "I pooped." That, and making an elk hide drum, are the highlights of my day thus far. The 23" powwow drum that I made on saturday, western red cedar and elk rawhide. Today I made a cedar stand for it and the first coat of spar varnish is drying now. This is the first of two drums that I made this weekend, the other being a 15" hand drum for a client. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/loransmith/DSCN7099.jpg[/IMG] Alas, no pictures of Elizabeth pooping in the produce aisle. Cool drum. I take it that you haven't played it yet by the carnish not being done comment. When you do, I think you should post a vid so we can hear it's sound. I think it looks great, but I'm really curious if it sounds as nice as it looks. I don't wanna give you too much credit for an ugly sounding drum And we all completely forgive you for not having poop-pics. No, I said the varnish was drying on the stand... Since the rawhide on the drum was so thick, and it was an enclosed cylinder, it took about 36 hours to dry and was ready to play Monday morning. It sounds amazing, but benefits from having a stand that suspends both drum heads in the air and keeps the bottom off the ground. [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v293/loransmith/DSCN7100.jpg[/IMG] I don't really know how to rotate the vid, and I am not going to go reshoot with the camera horizontally, but you can get an idea here. Due to ambient noises and being outside, the vid doesn't really capture the amazing overtones and reverb of the drum. When it is played, the vibrations resonate right through your arm and chest, which is pretty cool. The thing with a rawhide drum is that it changes with fluxuations in humidity, so will sound deeper in sticky weather and higher in dry weather. This can be mitigated somewhat by placing it in the sun for a few minutes or hitting it briefly with a hair drier, or misting it slightly with water. Usually you can find various "sweet" spots on the head to avoid doing this whatever the humidity. http://smg.photobucket.com/...current=DSCN7101.mp4
that's amazing...
...
...
that you were able to suspend both you and the drum from a perfectly manicured lawn cliff. i'm impressed.
(sounds good, too)
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sungam
Apr 18, 2012, 1:43 AM
Post #35175 of 43082
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Posts: 26352
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Lazlo wrote: sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: sungam wrote: Lazlo wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: donald949 wrote: Death Valley. Don't believe the hype. It wasn't HOT. It wasn't DRY. It was cold, wet, and windy. We even hiked a small canyon next to a nice stream and up to a 30 water fall. And reportedly there were 7 more behind up canyon! OK, so you you prolly be hard pressed to find another canyon with in the park that had a year round stream and falls. We also got down to some sand dunes and a dry canyon one day. Hiking up the small canyon was really cool. Over to a bunch of old mines and ghost town another day. Town was all gone, but the mill was still there, as well as a couple shacks miles outside of town. Got to check out some 130 yo charcoal kilns. They made charcoal to fire a gold/silver furnace back then. Last day was just spent kicking back in the trailer as it was weather wuz blowing cold. Well our Lone Pine trip in Nov wuz colder. But it was supposed to be 75 to 85 awl weak. ONly day it was warm was Monday when we drove in. Sat as we drove home the mountains were all covered with a light dusting of snow. On saturday I was at 13,000 feet in -5 weather as it snowed. At first I was like "-5? Getting nippy." Then I remembered you were in the US... I'm not sure exactly what you mean. -5 c = 27f, no? Aye, exactly. I meant at first I was like "-5*C? Not too bad" but then I realized you meant -5*F, since you are in the USA, which is -20*C, considerably colder then I initially thought. Ah. Gotcha. There was also a 20 mph wind chill. Not too bad, but still.
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