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VertFlirt
Apr 20, 2012, 6:40 PM
Post #101 of 161
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healyje- dude i get it, they certinly ant any other cam, they have pros and cons... i get it. thats why i created this post, so everyone knows they have huge limitations, and will probilby break unless the placment is perfect.
shotwell- i think what ur looking for is me to admit that i didnt know shit about links before i started using them, this is not COMPLETLY true, i always knew they were weaker, and the've broken before. i also knew that, just like ANY OTHER CAM, they had to be placed in the direction of the fall, and i admit i underestimated the importance of that statment. i havent verified this but im sure EVERY OTHER SLCD manufacturer says the same thing about there product, tortional loading is bad, place in direction of fall.bla blabla. I feel OP didnt do a goodenoff job leting climbers know that, unlike ANY OTHER CAM, these ones will probily blow up if subjected to any tortional loading. like me, not all climbers will extensivly search the www to find this out before putting a UIAA approved product to use.
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healyje
Apr 20, 2012, 7:47 PM
Post #102 of 161
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VertFlirt wrote: ...like me, not all climbers will extensivly search the www to find this out before putting a UIAA approved product to use.
Part of the point I and others are trying to get across here is that climbing is a serious, as in dead serious, business. Trad climbing is doubly so. You simply can't afford to "underestimate" ANYTHING about the pro you leave the ground with.
Saying you "knew they were weaker" is a start and hopefully you got that at first glance. But then you have to take that awareness a couple of steps further first taking the time to figure out 'weak' in what ways? And on sorting that out you then have to translate that to what it means in using them in placements - how will different placements either mitigate or exacerbate those weaknesses.
If you have to depend on websites, the UIAA, CE, manufacturer or any source outside of your own common sense and logic to figure that out then it's the same deal - you shouldn't be using them. The UIAA, CE, manufacturer, and sorted internet avatars aren't going to be leaving the ground with you when you tie in on lead - you are alone and you have to be capable on your own of perceiving, analyzing, and understanding the limitations of the gear you leave the ground with otherwise you're at high risk of injury and death.
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shockabuku
Apr 20, 2012, 8:01 PM
Post #103 of 161
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healyje wrote: If you have to depend on websites, the UIAA, CE, manufacturer or any source outside of your own common sense and logic to figure that out then it's the same deal - you shouldn't be using them.
Which, as I read it, says "you have to know what you don't know."
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 12:53 PM
Post #104 of 161
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I do not carry anything on my rack that does not have multiple uses and can not stand up to abuse. trad climbing is not a delicate sport and delicate gear has no place on my rack. Aid on the other hand is delicate. still not carrying link cams. i will take may chances with a talon hook or a bird beak ;) Link cams IMOP are too frajile and too limited in their placement orientation for me to bother carrying them. as much as I feel tricams are over rated i will take a tricam any day over a link cam.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 1:20 PM
Post #105 of 161
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All micro gear is sussecptable to faliure much more so than large gear. We Should all know that a 00 TCU is marginal pro in it's best placement. Most of us also feel pretty darn warm and fuzzy when we place a 2" piece in a good crack. Heck if I place a 2" piece in a good c rack I expect it to be completly effin bombproof to the tune of you can hang a keg off that sucker. This brings up the biggest danger with the Link cams INMOP. They are generaly big pieces that most would expect to be bombproof yet they are in fact just as delicate if not more delicate as your micro cams.
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shotwell
Apr 23, 2012, 2:07 PM
Post #106 of 161
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tradmanclimbs wrote: All micro gear is sussecptable to faliure much more so than large gear. We Should all know that a 00 TCU is marginal pro in it's best placement. Most of us also feel pretty darn warm and fuzzy when we place a 2" piece in a good crack. Heck if I place a 2" piece in a good c rack I expect it to be completly effin bombproof to the tune of you can hang a keg off that sucker. This brings up the biggest danger with the Link cams INMOP. They are generaly big pieces that most would expect to be bombproof yet they are in fact just as delicate if not more delicate as your micro cams.
A full keg weighs 160.5 pounds. How is that even remotely bombproof?
If you can't handle the delicacy of the Link Cam, don't use them. I don't.
My argument is still the same as healy's. Make your own decisions. Figure out how to keep yourself and your partner safe.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 4:54 PM
Post #107 of 161
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It's a saying that has been arround since I started climbing 30 years ago. "that is so bomber you could hang a keg off it" If you do not apperciate the humor in that saying then you are most likly too uptight to share a rope with... YMMV
Link cams are big pieces that should be bomber, they are not bomber. That is some shifty shit in my book and will not earn a place on my rack.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 5:39 PM
Post #109 of 161
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Thank you joe. You just made my point perfectly. A big piece should take advantage of it's size and be bombproof yet any anchor is only as strong as it's weakest LINK. In this case that link is mighty darn small.
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healyje
Apr 23, 2012, 5:55 PM
Post #110 of 161
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"Size" is an utterly meaningless, pointless, and entirely counterproductive use of a word with regard to protection - there is nothing about the "size" of a piece or protection that does or should determine that piece's fitness for the task at hand.
That you would somehow equate "size" to fitness irrespective of the details of design and manufacture is borders on frightening.
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redlude97
Apr 23, 2012, 5:55 PM
Post #111 of 161
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tradmanclimbs wrote: It's a saying that has been arround since I started climbing 30 years ago. "that is so bomber you could hang a keg off it" If you do not apperciate the humor in that saying then you are most likly too uptight to share a rope with... YMMV Link cams are big pieces that should be bomber, they are not bomber. That is some shifty shit in my book and will not earn a place on my rack.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 6:24 PM
Post #112 of 161
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joe, thats effin stupid. regardless of what some girl told you to make you feel better size does matter. A #3 camalot makes a better belay anchor than a #00 TCU. A #7 stopper is bombproof, a #3 micro is a #3 micro. Bigger is better when it comes to saveing my ass. Link cams are big but have tiny little fcking parts in them that makes them potentualy as weak as a new born kitten. Total fcking BS INMOP
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marc801
Apr 23, 2012, 6:25 PM
Post #113 of 161
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tradmanclimbs wrote: It's a saying that has been arround since I started climbing 30 years ago. "that is so bomber you could hang a keg off it"...
"You could hang a truck off it...", sure, but keg?
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 6:30 PM
Post #114 of 161
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Mark, How about a Beer Truck? You get your truck and a keg thrown in
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healyje
Apr 23, 2012, 7:40 PM
Post #115 of 161
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tradmanclimbs wrote: joe, thats effin stupid. regardless of what some girl told you to make you feel better size does matter. A #3 camalot makes a better belay anchor than a #00 TCU. A #7 stopper is bombproof, a #3 micro is a #3 micro. Bigger is better when it comes to saveing my ass. Link cams are big but have tiny little fcking parts in them that makes them potentualy as weak as a new born kitten. Total fcking BS INMOP
Your entire tract on size matters is moronic - design matter, materials matter, manufacturing matters. There is NOTHING about size that somehow does or should override the details of what a piece 'is' when you leave the ground with it.
(This post was edited by healyje on Apr 23, 2012, 7:41 PM)
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johnwesely
Apr 23, 2012, 9:06 PM
Post #116 of 161
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healyje wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: joe, thats effin stupid. regardless of what some girl told you to make you feel better size does matter. A #3 camalot makes a better belay anchor than a #00 TCU. A #7 stopper is bombproof, a #3 micro is a #3 micro. Bigger is better when it comes to saveing my ass. Link cams are big but have tiny little fcking parts in them that makes them potentualy as weak as a new born kitten. Total fcking BS INMOP Your entire tract on size matters is moronic - design matter, materials matter, manufacturing matters. There is NOTHING about size that somehow does or should override the details of what a piece 'is' when you leave the ground with it.
I think he is just trying to say that the limitations exceed the usefulness of the piece, especially when compared to other pieces in the same size range.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 9:23 PM
Post #117 of 161
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Joe, Are you smoking crack?
Hanging belay. the moves off of that hanging belay are the crux of the climb and no gear is available untill after hard moves have been done directly above the belay risking an FF2 fall.
Your choice of belay anchors.
Option #1; Two 1/4in button heads with leeper hangers or two 1/2in glue ins.
#2: Two 3# BD micro stoppers or 2 BD #7 stoppers.
#3: Two #00 metelious TCU's or 2 BD Gold #2 Camalots.
In 30 years of climbing I have zippered some gear. Mostly pushing new routs. only once was it a large piece. A horribly placed green camalot in a wet slimy flare. All my other gear failures have been micro wires, micro stoppers, tied off knife blades, bird beaks, talon hooks, etc. When it comes to protection bigger is better up to a point.
My point with the link cam is it is a big piece with tiny delicate parts in it. Useless as tits on a boar hogg INMOP
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on Apr 23, 2012, 9:30 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2012, 9:27 PM
Post #118 of 161
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I think he is just trying to say that the limitations exceed the usefulness of the piece, especially when compared to other pieces in the same size range.
Bingo.
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6pacfershur
Apr 23, 2012, 9:45 PM
Post #119 of 161
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this thread is awsome! the only ones missing are rescueman and majid....
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healyje
Apr 24, 2012, 7:02 AM
Post #120 of 161
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tradmanclimbs wrote: I think he is just trying to say that the limitations exceed the usefulness of the piece, especially when compared to other pieces in the same size range. Bingo.
As I've said again and again, I have no problem with that personal conclusion and decision not to use them; what I have a problem with is the moronic assertion that big pieces should be bomb.
P.S. There isn't a cam size I haven't broken or seen broken.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2012, 8:35 PM
Post #122 of 161
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Who is the moron here joe? The guy who gets all warm and fuzzy when he sinks a perfect # 3 camalot or perhaps a #11 hex in a perfect bottle neck or the company that markets link cams to noobs on the premis that they are bomber pro that does everything?
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healyje
Apr 24, 2012, 8:43 PM
Post #123 of 161
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I would say anyone who takes a 1/4 second glance at them and thinks they're just another cam or anyone asserting size is anything but meaningless without consideration of design and manufacture.
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shotwell
Apr 24, 2012, 8:46 PM
Post #124 of 161
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Who is the moron here joe? The guy who gets all warm and fuzzy when he sinks a perfect # 3 camalot or perhaps a #11 hex in a perfect bottle neck or the company that markets link cams to noobs on the premis that they are bomber pro that does everything?
Have you even tried to keep up with this thread? On the main marketing page for the Link Cams Omega Pacific specifically warns about their inherent weaknesses.
In reply to: Be sure to anticipate direction of load, should you fall or weight the cam. This is particularly important with Link Cams, due to their unique construction. Since they are built using trisected cam lobes, Link Cams can become damaged—and the placement may fail—if a load is placed that makes the cam “shift” when a climber falls onto it. We are constantly researching ways to improve the strength and durability of Link Cams, but it is critical that Link Cams be placed with direction of load in mind. You should always place any removable protection with this principle in mind, of course, but Link Cams in particular should be placed so that the stem is aimed directly toward the ground and, when loaded, the position of the axle does not rotate during a fall or when bounce-testing. Although Link Cams’ flexible stems can help “correct” a less-than-ideal placement, it is still important that the initial placement be made in proper alignment with anticipated load.
Doesn't sound like they're saying you can use them however you choose to me. If you're incapable of deciphering marketing copy it is no surprise that you would use size as an indicator of strength. It is no one's fault but your own that you think Link Cams should work the way you expect. They are what they are.
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healyje
Apr 24, 2012, 9:00 PM
Post #125 of 161
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In reply to: unique construction
In reply to: trisected cam lobes
Ultra-hush-hush, secret code words for 'not like other cams'.
The advantages the design offers comes with some obvious materials limitations in the execution - at least they should be patently obvious or, if they aren't, then you shouldn't be trad climbing.
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