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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 2:25 PM
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In reply to: Honestly, it sounds like this happens to you a lot because you are climbing with n00bs a lot. Myself, I choose to do fun, challenging climbs with people I like, and who know how to climb. So these freak outs are infreakquent.
They were no more of a noob than I was at the time, and the reason I climb with them is because they are my friends and good times are best had in the company of true friends.
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happiegrrrl
Oct 13, 2006, 2:30 PM
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I used to have major freak out fits on one particular partner when we climbed together. Have never had anything remotely resembling such an incident with anyone else before, during or since.....
The person I refer to would start detailing what I should be doing the moment I got on the climb. If I hesitated for a second, he was "giving me advice." This irked the fuck out of me, because I DO stop and look at the rock for my sequences or to get an even keel before I move through one. Especially when the sequence took all my focus (because heaven forbid we climb something that wasn't pushing beyond my abilities; that's how you get better, after all....grrrrr).
I HATE getting beta from people. Hate, hate hate it. Especially when the beta doesn't jibe with what I am intending to do. Do NOT give me beta.
Are you, perhaps, giving your seconds beta when they might prefer to have silence so they can think, and if any words, maybe simply be those of patient encouragement? I know that when I am trying to think, on lead or following, I prefer that I don't have to interact with my partner in a way that takes away my concentration.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: Two weeks ago, I was watching this guy second up the first pitch of a six pitch 5.7, shaking and swearing, dropping two cams along the way. I waited to see what would happen. He got to the belay. The leader took off again. I walked over and picked up a brand new yellow tcu and almost new orange tcu. So I got to see a second lose his s---, them lose some of the other guy's s---. I didn't witness the first losing his s--- about the lost s---, but that s--- would have been funny to see! And I scored new s---! s--- yeah!
If only I had a trophy my friend, a great post like that deserves one.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 2:42 PM
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In reply to: Are you, perhaps, giving your seconds beta when they might prefer to have silence so they can think, and if any words, maybe simply be those of patient encouragement? I know that when I am trying to think, on lead or following, I prefer that I don't have to interact with my partner in a way that takes away my concentration.
NEVER. Let me repeat that NEVER do I give unsolicited beta to any climber, partner or other wise. I like your self hate spray lords with a passion and have actually made a shirt that says BETA on the back with a big circle around it and a line through it (what is that symbol called?). It doesn't win me any friends but its damn affective at the gym for keeping people from standing behind me and getting all my holds wet with there spray. I'm a fairly quiet person to start with but on the wall I talk even less, chatting it up in the vertical world just seem superfluous most of the time. Again this doesn't happen every time I go climbing but it has happened at least once with everyone.
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robmcc
Oct 13, 2006, 3:22 PM
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In reply to: Personally, I think sometimes 80% of the fun of climbing is looking back on the scary stuff a couple days later. This is doubly true for trad.
So scaring the crap out of yourself is 160% of the fun of trad?
Yeah, sounds about right. :)
Rob
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grampacharlie
Oct 13, 2006, 3:34 PM
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In reply to: So I got to see a second lose his s---, them lose some of the other guy's s---. I didn't witness the first losing his s--- about the lost s---, but that s--- would have been funny to see! And in the end, I scored new s---! Good s---, huh?
:lol:
I've had a few reactions like this happen with noobs, and I've also had folks have panic attacks to the point where we needed to "rescue" them off the pitch.
The anger reaction is reminissant of one of the 5 stages of greiving, in that it is not usually the first reaction, but is the most easily recognisable. Likewise, Denial, despair, and bargening may happen during the climb, and the anger only comes out once they feel safe enough to place blame, or freak out.
Once removed from the situation completely and safely on the ground, they feel a sense of elation/euphoria around the experience. That's typically when they say "WOOO HOOOO! I totally want to do that again bro!" :D
to which you reply may sound something like:
"yeah I'll call you when my ears stop bleeding." :roll:
In summation, I'd try to find a few partners with more experience climbing, and save guiding noobs till you can at least get paid for it. :wink:
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csproul
Oct 13, 2006, 4:03 PM
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noob leaders can be a source of frustration for followers of all ability. Especially in the area of placing gear. They're slow with gear, they place it in inconvenient places/poor stances, they set it too hard and/or get it stuck easily, and they don't often consider protecting the second. I can see this being one of the biggest sources of conflict with seconds.
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redlegrangerone
Oct 13, 2006, 4:23 PM
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The person who said seconding is just top roping, either has not done much seconding or has forgotten what it is like to be a new second.
I had been climbing a little over two months when I had a chance to climb with one of the local route developers. We climbed a good ten hours and he decided we could get one more climb in. At the time, I had never climbed above 5.7. We were doing mostly FA's. What he thought would be a nice easy 5.6 chickenheadfest turned out to have a 5.12 move to get into the chickenhead. Loaded with drill and rack, he could not pull that move. This meant going up another way.
Up to this point of the day, the leader had never said a word during his climbing. He started up an offwidth and all I heard was cussing, grunting, and more swearing. As a new climber, all this did was make me worried about what was going on. An hour later, I hear I need 20 more meters to get to a belay. We had 2 feet of rope left. So he yells, I owuld have to climb until he could reach a belay. By this time, I had made myself scared with worry. Having to climb and belay at the same time terrified me. Just as I reached the bottom of the offwidth, I heard him yell off belay. The first piece of gear was a 00tcu that fell out as soon as I touched it.
Looking at this slanting offwidth just reinforced my fear. I literally was chicken winging one arm, and trying to jam a foot. The other foot and leg were hanging over the edge. The next piece of gear was 50 feet up a 4.5 camalot.. The next was another 50 feet up, a #4 camalot.. By the time I got to the second piece I was I was throwing up from fear. When I finally got to the belay, I was totally freaked out, sick, and wanted to go home. ANywhere along the way, a fall would have been a very nasty pendulum. No way it was a toprope climb. It took 30 minutes before I was able to even belay for the second pitch so we could get off the route.
The route turned out to be 5.8x. So sometimes, you get scared for real reasons. And yes, the next day I called him and wanted to go back.
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clarki
Oct 13, 2006, 5:50 PM
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Saxfiend--Duuuude, I was so not talking about the OP, who had a valid, honest question, but about our butmunching friend Climbingaggie who was in fact being just a tad on the insensitive side.
John
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david_smithrock
Oct 13, 2006, 5:53 PM
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If you are climbing with someone new that may be a little uneasy, be sure not to climb stuff that scares the heck out of you! If the second is scared, it makes it even worse when the leader is up there thrutching and cussing, shaking and crying while on lead. The second ends up getting even more scared and psyched out before even starting up. That is why it's so important for Guides (or trip leaders) to be calm at all times; clients pick up on your fear and it makes them think they're in danger even if they're not.
Make sure you know the route as well. Don't get a new climber into an uncertain venture unless that's what they signed up for.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 6:19 PM
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There was a time in which "uncertain ventures" were the things of which this sport was made. I never strive to frighten anyone but if your scared of being scared this maybe the wrong sport for you.
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saxfiend
Oct 13, 2006, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: Saxfiend--Duuuude, I was so not talking about the OP, who had a valid, honest question, but about our butmunching friend Climbingaggie who was in fact being just a tad on the insensitive side. John
JL
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david_smithrock
Oct 13, 2006, 8:25 PM
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In reply to: There was a time in which "uncertain ventures" were the things of which this sport was made. I never strive to frighten anyone but if your scared of being scared this maybe the wrong sport for you.
yeah........ we're talking about taking beginners climbing here. People generally aren't opposed to being scared if they're going rock climbing. But if they are cursing, crying, or pissed off when they top out, you probably took them on the wrong route..... or are a jackass.
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outdoorsie
Oct 13, 2006, 9:11 PM
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In reply to: noob leaders can be a source of frustration for followers of all ability. Especially in the area of placing gear. They're slow with gear, they place it in inconvenient places/poor stances, they set it too hard and/or get it stuck easily, and they don't often consider protecting the second. I can see this being one of the biggest sources of conflict with seconds.
I agree with this one. I love climbing with my husband. But he is about a foot taller than me. He can easily reach up high and place gear above that big ledge. And he likes to slot nuts and even cams in weird ways. Sometimes when I'm hanging from one hand jam 4 feet above that ledge, asking for slack as I try to get the gear out of the crack... yeah, I cuss a little. There is some anger. :-)
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notapplicable
Oct 14, 2006, 4:29 AM
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In reply to: you probably took them on the wrong route..... or are a jackass.
I was just responding to david_smithrock's post.
In reply to: Don't get a new climber into an uncertain venture unless that's what they signed up for.
I wasn't trying to be harsh and I don't intentionally get people in over there head but if you "signed up" to go rock climbing then (regardless of the route) you have signed up for and "uncertain venture", its the nature of the game. No one can anticipate what someone while find hard or frightening about a route when they have done plenty others of the grade with you.
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devkrev
Oct 14, 2006, 6:38 AM
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I always get super-nervous when I am seconding a route, probably moreso than if I was leading. I have gotten it into my head that its completely unacceptable to fall if you are seconding, just on the fact that you got to see someone already climb the route, and following isn't real climbing anyway. I am calm and confident(most of the time) when leading, because I find it okay (in the ego-driven "I'm best" way) to fall.
I have serious issues.
dev
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boredwolf
Oct 16, 2006, 11:09 AM
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After being on the other end of the equation this weekend, doing my first trad lead, I believe I have some insight into this condition. I freaked-out when I was 40' from the top with 2 #1 camalots (no visible placements) and 2 sets of nuts (no placements at all). I've been climbing for over a year, and lead plenty of sport climbs. Something about the exposure of the climb, as well as being able to hear birds flying past me played on my insecurities about my placements, and made me overly conscious of the fact that I was "way up there". I plugged 2 cams right in front of me and bailed off the climb. Oddly, I wasn't as scared of bailing as I was trying to run-out the rest of the climb. I couldn't even think about leading trad that night without my stomach doing flips. I decided that trad wasn't for me - I was going to sell all my gear and stick to sport and TRing. Fortunately, I left a #3 camalot (retail $68.50) sitting on the damned ledge halfway up, so my partner forced me to retrieve his beautiful blue camalot Sunday morning via an adjacent 5.5 climb. I placed a large nut about 30' up, and 3 cams along the rest of the 100' climb - all bomber. I got to the top, set-up my belay off a tree, and then I freaked-out again. I was high, I could see for miles, and I'd be a stain on the ground if I fell. All I could think was "damn, I'm glad I took a dump before I got on the rock". My second gets up, we traverse an exposed face to the rap rings, and I'm completely cool. We simul-rap down to the bottom, and I'm weak in the knees. Jesus H. Christ, why did I even go up there in the first place. Again: I'm gonna sell all my gear and stick to Sport and TRing. As we're hiking back, my partner says to me "That climb was my first trad lead, and my Second told me it was 5.5, but it's 5.6". I just grinned. I'm going back there in the next week or two to do some more trad.
I get scared on TR, too. I've trained myself mentally to the point where falling is not an option. If I fall, it's because I'm too pumped to make a fist. I use the fear to fuel me forward, and it has pushed my abilities to progressively greater limits.
You have to realize that everyone gets freaked at some point. They just have to understand that it's OK, and to keep with it. Your greatest regret will be giving up on a route. Climbing toys with your emotions, as well as your concept of safety. What matters is that when you look back, you had fun.
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tradrenn
Oct 16, 2006, 12:43 PM
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I freaked out only once since I started to lead gear climbs, my belayer tells me that he can clean the gear and that he's been belaying lead for 2 years.
As I take of ( 5.7 climb that I have done 5 times before ) he walks away from the face of the climb. The rope gets tight and I asked him:
Me: What are you doing ?
Moron: I need to see where you climb.
Me: WTF
Me: Why is the rope tight ?
Moron: I don't know.
Me: Can you give me some slack ?
Moron: OK
It took me about 10min to lead that route and I had to tell Moron to give me more slack about 20 times.
By now I'm pretty fucken pissed off
I'm at the top, made the anchor, I'm ready to belay his friend up ( Moron was instructed to tie his friend in the middle of the rope and when his friend is ready, let me know and I will bring him up. Moron would go at the end of the rope and clean all the gear.
Instead Mr. Moron ties his friend at the end of the rope and tells me he is good to go.
As it turns out his friend ended up climbing half the route with 30 feet of slack, as soon as I seen him ( roof in the middle of this route ) I told him to stop climbing for a sec. and I picked up all the unnecessary slack as quickly as I could and then told him to continue to the top.
Now I'm super pissed of and I want kick the shiet out of that guy.
I lower the rope to the Moron, he ties at the end of the rope, climbs and cleans all the gear.
20 minutes later we are at the bottom of the route we just did, as it turns out his friend never been outside and Moron guy only climb for 3 months in the gym.
FUCKEN GYM RATS
Moron's friend gets a little safety speech from me.
Moron gets:
Me: YOU STUPID FUCKEN RETARDED MORON ...............BLAH BLAH BLAH
Then I pack my gear and go home ( stopping by Beer Store first )
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notapplicable
Oct 16, 2006, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: You have to realize that everyone gets freaked at some point. They just have to understand that it's OK, and to keep with it. Your greatest regret will be giving up on a route. Climbing toys with your emotions, as well as your concept of safety. What matters is that when you look back, you had fun.
I understand and agree with what your saying, scaring your self silly and coming out the other side a stronger and more experienced climber can do more for your game than just about anything else. It is important to stick with it and not let the fear make decisions for you on the wall or off the wall. I don't mean to give the impression that I don't get scared or freak out (see the below), I just freak out inwardly or at the situation not at my partner who is in some circumstances my life line. I'm glad that you decided to give gear routes another chance, I would suggest that you get a more well rounded rack so that you have more gear options and can place more than 4 pieces in 100', 5.5 or not that is enough to spook alot of people who aren't comfortable on gear. Happy climbing and just remember, if your freaking out and still alive then you situation isn't all that bad because when your truly in danger freaking out will get you killed faster than anything else. Remember of that and you will realize things aren't so bad and you can calm down and finish what you started.
A quote by me taken from another post
In reply to: I am continually surprised (maybe impressed is a better word) by the draw of this sport and the power it has over its participants. Even when terrified and crying for my mommy it never occurs to me to call it quits and take up a less psychologically abusive hobby. Given the quotes above, my own flailings and the fact that we all continue to climb, I must say that we humans are some strange, strange creatures. |
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cintune
Oct 16, 2006, 7:32 PM
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Everone reacts differently to stress I guess. For me, the funny thing is that I can stay perfectly steady and focused while climbing, no matter how sketchy things get, but once it's all over and I'm safe at the top or back on the ground, the adrenaline suddenly kicks in and I can totally freak about what I've just done. Or else I'll wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat over something that happened a day or two before. Some kind of delayed reaction, or post-traumatic stress I guess. It never stops me from wanting to go out and do it again though. It really makes no sense at all.
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boredwolf
Oct 17, 2006, 6:15 AM
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In reply to: I'm glad that you decided to give gear routes another chance, I would suggest that you get a more well rounded rack so that you have more gear options and can place more than 4 pieces in 100', 5.5 or not that is enough to spook alot of people who aren't comfortable on gear.
Heh, thing is that I wasn't worried about running-out the pro. I was completely comfortable with my placements, and I just realized I needed to throw in another piece after I looked down and realized my last one was a good 20-25 ft below. I might've placed another cam on the climb if I'd had that #3 handy at the time, though. It just goes to prove that you never know how someone's going to react. I've led 5.11a sport and been completely cool, but I freaked on 5.Easy...
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cracklover
Apr 27, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Great thread! I didn't see it the first time around, so forgive me for resurrecting it. Lots of stuff worth reading here.
I can't say I've ever been that second, but my wife has freaked out a few times. I've found that once she gets it out of her system, she's totally fine. She might get more and more wound up for four pitches of a six pitch climb, burst into tears, and then be totally fine for the rest of the climb. At the time, it can be very stressful. It seems like you must be doing something wrong, or like she really doesn't like this. It seems like I should be doing something to "fix" the situation. But, I've learned, sometimes it just happens, and you need to be able to roll with the punches.
Everyone's emotional wiring is a little different. If you have a good partner, who you trust, and have fun with (as I do with my wife) you get used to the foibles, and you learn to work well with each other.
GO
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cracklover
Apr 27, 2012, 11:54 AM
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tradrenn wrote: I freaked out only once since I started to lead gear climbs, my belayer tells me that he can clean the gear and that he's been belaying lead for 2 years. As I take of ( 5.7 climb that I have done 5 times before ) he walks away from the face of the climb. The rope gets tight and I asked him: Me: What are you doing ? Moron: I need to see where you climb. Me: WTF Me: Why is the rope tight ? Moron: I don't know. Me: Can you give me some slack ? Moron: OK It took me about 10min to lead that route and I had to tell Moron to give me more slack about 20 times. By now I'm pretty fucken pissed off I'm at the top, made the anchor, I'm ready to belay his friend up ( Moron was instructed to tie his friend in the middle of the rope and when his friend is ready, let me know and I will bring him up. Moron would go at the end of the rope and clean all the gear. Instead Mr. Moron ties his friend at the end of the rope and tells me he is good to go. As it turns out his friend ended up climbing half the route with 30 feet of slack, as soon as I seen him ( roof in the middle of this route ) I told him to stop climbing for a sec. and I picked up all the unnecessary slack as quickly as I could and then told him to continue to the top. Now I'm super pissed of and I want kick the shiet out of that guy. I lower the rope to the Moron, he ties at the end of the rope, climbs and cleans all the gear. 20 minutes later we are at the bottom of the route we just did, as it turns out his friend never been outside and Moron guy only climb for 3 months in the gym. FUCKEN GYM RATS Moron's friend gets a little safety speech from me. Moron gets: Me: YOU STUPID FUCKEN RETARDED MORON ...............BLAH BLAH BLAH Then I pack my gear and go home ( stopping by Beer Store first )
Good story! I've never had anything that bad. Worst I've ever had was leading a climb, fell, and new second got dragged through the mud to the base of the slab I was leading. I fell a lot farther than I should have, but I was fine. I realized that I had just assumed everyone knew they should stand near the base. She didn't know that, and I didn't think to say so.
Oops!
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Apr 27, 2012, 11:56 AM)
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notapplicable
Apr 27, 2012, 1:19 PM
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Those were super nOOberific times for me. I was still teaching myself how to climb with nothing but some books, a rope and a half rack to make my way. Good times! 
I've climbed with a lot of different people since then and I've learned to read them much better before leaving the ground. Haven't really gotten anyone in over their head in a long time. Seen a few tears but they were of the "I want to be here, I just need to work thru the emotions" variety, like you described. Normal stuff.
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notapplicable
Apr 27, 2012, 1:35 PM
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caughtinside wrote: Number Two drops Number Two? :P Honestly, it sounds like this happens to you a lot because you are climbing with n00bs a lot. Myself, I choose to do fun, challenging climbs with people I like, and who know how to climb. So these freak outs are infreakquent. If I wanted to drag along a non climber or a beginner climber, I can see how this would happen more often.
In retrospect, this was exactly right.
We were all a bunch of nOObs but they didn't have the same passion for climbing. 6 years later none of them still climb. Which is fine of course and we're still friends, I just wanted them to be climbers much more than they did.
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