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wonderwoman
May 1, 2012, 3:03 PM
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Please discuss your webbing vs. top rope issues here.
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njrox
May 1, 2012, 3:35 PM
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My static rope is only 60 feet long. Often I’ll use webbing or cord to wrap the trees and then connect them with a biner to my static rope. In that situation, I believe webbing is safe for top-rope climbing.
I use webbing to build tree rappel anchors. Always two pieces, each with its own link.
Those are the only two situations where I find myself using webbing. I never trust just one piece. I never use it as a master point. And I make sure to avoid putting in a position that would expose it to friction or abrasion. Never over a rock edge, and as secure and static as possible whenever wrapped around a tree.
I would say that I use webbing regularly. Most of the time it is used in the extension scenario. I’ve had the same length of webbing in my pack for this purpose for nearly a year and it’s still in great condition. No sign of wear or deterioration.
I trust webbing but only for limited purposes. But if I had a longer static rope then I probably wouldn’t use webbing except for tree rappel anchors.
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wonderwoman
May 1, 2012, 3:44 PM
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I have not set up a top rope in a long time. However, the last time I did, I believe that I used webbing. That being said, I learned how to set up a top rope anchor in the mid-90's and that's what was commonly used. In the northeast we have a ton of BFTs (Big Effing Trees) that you can use for an anchor.
I have since acquired static rope and do know how to use it to set up an anchor. However, I would like to know what are the strengths and weaknesses of each system. Enlighten me, please, folks!
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 3:51 PM
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njrox
May 1, 2012, 3:54 PM
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I have two different brands of webbing here are the specs that were listed when I bought them...
Sterling 1 in. Tubular Webbing
MBS of 4496 lbs
Blue Water 1" Climbing-Spec Tubular Webbing
17.8 kN
In terms of "pull strength", forgive me if that's not the proper term, it's strong enough for top-rope falls (edit: used in the TR scenario in which I described earlier). The obvious weakness is abrasion. No clue as far as its dynamic properties but at .40 cents a foot it's not going to break my bank to toss out the length I've been carrying around and replace it with a fresh new peice.
(This post was edited by njrox on May 1, 2012, 3:58 PM)
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 3:57 PM
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For a tree anchor with static rope is easy too. You can wrap it around the tree with a bowline. Or a follow-thru figure of eight just like tying into your harness. Then you're left with one strand where you can use to tie off another treem boulder or anchor placement then equalize the two and create your masterpoint.
One thing to keep in mind when building top-rope anchors is the maximum force that can be applied, even though probably never will lol, is 20 kN at the masterpoint so all of your anchors together as one need to withstand 20kN to be considered a solid anchor. Redundancy is hard to do but you can work towards that target number to achieve a great anchor.
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climbingaggie03
May 1, 2012, 4:00 PM
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I'm an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor, and in our course we set up top ropes both ways, but when I'm guiding, I usually prefer to use a static rope, especially if I"m going to be using trees that are a good distance from the edge.
The biggest advantage of static rope is that it's much easier to adjust than webbing.
Typicallly, if I'm using 2 trees for my anchor, I'll tie one end of the rope around one tree with a bowline, figure out about where my power point is, and then sling the other tree and clove hitch the rope to a locking biner on the sling.
Then I go and tie my power point and hang my rope, if I want to adjust it, I can adjust the bowline, the knot at my power point, or the clove hitch.
All the knots in the rope are easy to untie, vs if I used webbing for the same site, the water knots would be a pain to get undone at the end of the day.
Also if you're going to hang 2 ropes near each other and you have a pretty long static line, if you don't need too much rope for either set up, sometimes you can use the same static rope for both anchors.
I'd say weight is the biggest drawback to static vs webbing.
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tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2012, 4:04 PM
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#1 Permanent tree anchors suck in most situations. Sometimes the rock @ the top of a climb is too crappy to bolt and there just happens to be a good tree there so in those few situations the tree anchor is the best option. 90% of the time a bolted anchor is the better more enviro frendly option.
If you must use a tree anchor, webbing sucks. Climbing rope seems to last much longer. I cut up the good sections of my retired lead ropes and use those as tree anchors when nessicary.
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acorneau
May 1, 2012, 4:06 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: This is really sad and my condolences her family and friends. It really bothers me when I see or hear about things like this, anchor or human error/failure. Some words of advice, and if you don't agree with me then you need to seek out professional training from PCGI or AMGA, rock climbing books and rock gyms and their employees (usually) give people a false sense of security. ANYONE can write a book about climbing, ANYONE! For example: Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills...great book but some of the techiniques they demonstrate in there are WAYYY out-dated and old school, some are straight up dangerous. Rock climbing anchors books are trying to find ways to solve every problem you'll encounter which is impossible and confusing for beginners who read them. Anyone who sets up top-ropes with webbing or spectra/dyneema slings has no CLUE what they're doing. If you disagree then you need to seek out professional training. I'm sure there's many people who will disagree with that. Take a course from a pro organization and you'll learn the correct ways.
NEGuiding wrote: I agree Patto. 100%. Older climbers used webbing and it's still being used today by untrained people. Actually, I've even seen trained people use it. It's very unsafe and hopefully people will understand that someday. Guides use static cord, no questions asked. None of my guides use webbing.
NEGuiding wrote: It is not an overstatement or my own "personal opinion" it is a professional statement that myself and many other guides work from. Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA. You are a good example of an "un-trained climber" if you disagree with my post. I'd rather not argue under this thread like you said, link me to where you would like to chat :)
NEGuiding wrote: Webbing (not slings) has NO place in a top-rope set up, period. What is your friends name? Because the man who co-wrote the amga rock guide curriculum and was one of the first certified AMGA rock guides in the US is a per-diem guide with me and absolutely despises webbing. I am also a board of directors member with PCGI. I don't know what caused this accident I was just going by what everyone who posted above me was saying. I just pointed out the webbing issues because it's a common cause of climbing accidents in the US. Just because you've been climbing for 50 years doesn't mean you've been doing it right. I've been climbing and guiding for a 3rd of that and know the dangers of webbing. Google 'AMGA SPI Manual' or 'SPI gear list' and you will see NO mention of webbing. My comany is a PCGI course provider and we DO NOT allow webbing or teach people how to use it in courses. Hopefully nobody listens to you on this safety matter, take a professional level course and you'll see what I mean.
Ok, NEGuiding, here's your chance to explain:
1. Why anyone who uses webbing in a TR system "has no clue".
2. Why webbing is "very unsafe".
3. Why webbings shouldn't be used for top-rope anchor systems.
The floor is yours...
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 4:10 PM
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Yeah, another good example of static use climbingaggie! Clove hitch is easy to "micro-adjust" to stabilize your masterpoint. And if that second anchor, the clove hitched one, can with stand 20 Kn you can use it as part of another anchor to set up multiple top ropes. The classic "W" set up for side by side top ropes.
Not sure if I explained that well lol hard via typing but take this: You have 2 top ropes you want to set up. Your anchor choices are 3 trees for example. So at each masterpoint your target number is 20 kN...so the left and right trees could be anchored with bowline or figure eight follow thru and the middle tree could have a clove hitch on a biner (for micro-adjusting). Now you're left with 2 "triangles" or a "W". Build your 2 masterpoints, equalize etc and you have 2 side by side top ropes.
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billcoe_
May 1, 2012, 4:11 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Thanks for creating this post wonderwoman, I'm not usually on rc.com so not sure how to use nowadays. Felt bad posting in that other post but I was just replying. I apologize. NJrox, using webbing for rappel anchors the way you describe is where it should be used, great choice and using 2 pieces with rap rings is GREAT! Keep that up. But for top rope set ups it is frowned upon highly these days because of many accidents in recent years. Webbing reacts quickly to sunlight, drying it out. If you've climbed you know but seeing old rap anchors and stations where the webbing is almost dry rotted. It also tears easily if used as a masterpoint. I use webbing like you do, over my static rope as added protection and that's it. In reply to that other guys comment about a 2 point anchor, I'll explain and hopefully it is understood. 2 bolts with static rope as an anchor: put a figure eight on a bight on each end of the static rope and clip each of them into a locking carabiner that is in each bolt then equalize the 2 points and create a masterpoint. Simple as that. That is how guides do it, that is how we as guides teach it and that is how you will learn to do it if you take a professional level course with AMGA or PCGI and even PCIA for that matter. It's a very simple set up, efficient and can withstand a lot of weight and wear and tear. The only time I carry an actual piece of webbing on me is on a multi-pitch route to replace old/worn-out rap anchors, that's it.
Unless you can show the data on your claim that old webbing dries up and is thus next to useless, I'm calling bullshit. We pulled some old faded to white ratty stuff off a climb back in the 80's and my engineering bud tested it and it was still amazingly high. 1 inch tubular is great stuff for top rope anchors. It is a little more difficult to tie off quickly, and it is more prone to cutting on a sharp edge as there is more surface area exposed, but is otherwise excellent. As Njox says, never just have a single point of support and you'll be good to go.
I often just use a partial piece of cut short dynamic rope. It works fine, but has stretching/rubbing issues you need to be aware of, and never trust a single point with yer life.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 4:16 PM
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I just explained acorneau.
1. Not to say doesn't have a clue but just not properly trained, not in tune with recent testing and new methods.
2. I explained above why webbing is unsafe.
3. Also explained above, thanks for the floor ;)
Do this, take a 3 foot piece of webbing and rub it on a rock edge. It doesn't have to be sharp. And then do the same with a 3 piece of static rope. The reason for the length is to wrap around your hands to apply a minimal amount of pressure like you would have in a top rope setting. After you do that get back to me with the results and I'm positive you will be against webbing just from that simple test.
Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 4:27 PM
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Billcoe, the only thing I can say to you is I just explained to you what guides do in several different applications. Whether it be trees, boulders or artificial anchors. I invite you take some professional training from AMGA, PCGI or PCIA and you'll see what I mean. The main and first choice for building anchors IS static rope, plain and simple. It's safer and easily adjustable.
If you hold a piece of webbing in one hand and static rope in the other hand which would you trust your life with? It's like comparing a piece of woven tape to 8 pieces of low or zero stretch (static)climbing rope. I'm going to go with the static rope lol!
I have this discussion a lot with novice and old climbers.
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skurdeycat
May 1, 2012, 4:28 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: I just explained acorneau. Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.
I'm not going to join the webbing vs. static rope debate, but you'll lose any credibility with the engineers and scientists here if you continue to insist that the strength of webbing is dependent on its water content.
Webbing exposed to the UV rays in sunlight degrades over time, people have died from using old slings. Wet clothes dry in the sun, webbing doesn't.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 4:31 PM
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That's what I meant by drying out, exposed to UV rays. Many accidents have been caused by this.
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jt512
May 1, 2012, 4:32 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Webbing has no place in a top-rope setup what so ever. You obviously have never had any formal training from PCGI or the AMGA. . . . [T]ake a professional level course and you'll see what I mean.
climbingaggie03 wrote: I'm an AMGA Single Pitch Instructor, and in our course we set up top ropes both ways [static rope and webbing] . . .
@NEGuiding, Climbingaggie03 took the course, as you suggested, and in so doing, invalidated your argument from authority.
Jay
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 4:52 PM
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olderic
May 1, 2012, 5:06 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Did not "invalidate" my authority lol! /
Each additional "lol" you write lowers your credibility another 10%. Are you 13 years old? Your pontifications are amusing but you really aren't that funny.
People who have a black and white view of things tend to be inexperienced. Not always but usually.
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tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2012, 5:06 PM
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Seen lots of Guides do stuff that is definatly oriented twords guideing and is not nessicarly needed or practical in real world climbing between equal partners. Just saying that just because AMGA or PCGI which I had never heard of prior to today say that you have to do something a cretain way does not mean that is the best or only way to do it. Just means that is the way they are taught to do it.
That being said I concur with the guides on this one. Rope is much better than webbing for any non leading anchor construction. The 20kn thing is pretty bogus though. I have broken enough climbing gear to figuer out that any climbing situation that comes even remotely close to those kinds of forces is going to be extreemly bad JUJU no matter how strong or redundant your anchor is..
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johnwesely
May 1, 2012, 5:08 PM
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Honestly, I think you are just spamming your guiding outfit and attempting to use the recent the recent Gunks accident for some perceived financial gain. Pretty lame.
(This post was edited by johnwesely on May 1, 2012, 5:08 PM)
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climbingaggie03
May 1, 2012, 5:11 PM
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I took the course in 2009 (I think).
It was a while back, but I'm fairly certain that I used some tied slings in my anchors.
(This post was edited by climbingaggie03 on May 2, 2012, 2:46 AM)
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curt
May 1, 2012, 5:12 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: That's what I meant by drying out, exposed to UV rays. Many accidents have been caused by this.
In spite of apparently being certified as a guide, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. You have thus far stated absolutely nothing factual related to the safety (or lack thereof) of using webbing to build a proper TR anchor. You have merely stated your opinion quite strongly. Furthermore, commenting on old aging webbing, as is sometimes found at rap stations, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of constructing a TR anchor with webbing vs static rope.
Curt
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jt512
May 1, 2012, 5:12 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Did not "invalidate" my authority lol! When did he take the course would be a good question and who was the course provider because I would LOVE to know... AMGA SPI Manual: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aai.cc%2Fpdf_download%2Freg_packet%2Fspi_program_manual_2011.pdf&ei=shKgT7nOEMbgtgfi3tDcBA&usg=AFQjCNEskQ9ShvLPATfB5sFxRJ_I17_qWQ NO mention of webbing, some of my guides have taken the course THIS year and they do not demonstrate the use of webbing nor did they even discuss the use of webbing. If the above link doesn't work let me know and I can email you the manual/pdf. Here are required gear lists for the course from top providers, which again webbing is not in the list: Google 'AMGA SPI gear list'. Again NO mention of webbing. Now onto the PCGI who is AMGA's competitor, which I am a board member and course provider for: go to www.guidesinstitute.org and look at ALL of their required gear lists for TRG and SPG courses. Again NO webbing. They don't even demonstrate it's use. http://www.climbingguidesinstitute.org/site/content/view/15/34/
I skimmed through the 63-page manual, and I see nowhere in there that it says that webbing is unsuitable in TR anchors, or that static rope is the only material suitable for TR anchors, or even that static rope is preferable to webbing. But I didn't read every word, so maybe I missed it. Please point out to me in the manual where any of those statements are made.
Jay
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 5:20 PM
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Yeah 20 kN is a pretty high number and way beyond what a human body can withstand but it is a worse case scenario. And John, I am not using an accident to benefit. Sadly, accidents make us aware of the dangers and hazards that exist in the outdoor industry and especially in vertical 5th class terrain. That's the reason why guiding/outfitting insurance is so high. Around $3000 annually and $5000 for overseas.
A couple of weeks ago I witnessed an accident in North Carolina at Crowders Mountain, when I responded to it and yelled down to the belayer she had no clue how to escape a belay or perform a simple "pick-off" to aid in the injured lead climber who was dangling upside down, unconscious and bleeding heavily. After witnessing that I offered 3 FREE rescue clinics at this park to educate recreational climbers in 3 basic skills that every climber should know: how to escape a belay, pick off/counter weighted rappel and class IV mitigation and negotiation. So to say I'm benefiting from this is disgusting and way out of line.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Jt is doesn't mention webbing at all, that was my point. And Curt, your thoughts are invalid here because all you like to do is argue on forums so move along. I recall mentioning something about soft southwest route ratings a few years ago on a forum and you flew off the handle. So you will be ignored.
My thought on this is use static rope for extending anchors in a top rope set up people. Take this from a professional. Is it really that hard to buy a piece of static cord and retire your webbing? Your life is on the line and others if you're top-roping on it. Do you really want to take that chance? Don't listen to older climbers about webbing just because they say "I've been doing this for 25 years or 30 years or whatever" Just because you've been doing something for al ong time doesn't mean that you've been doing it right.
If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do.
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