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granite_grrl
May 1, 2012, 8:38 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: If i were to asses the belay in the series of falling photos we have up thread it looks like the belayer locked off and held their possition as best they could in what looks like a fairly decent fall. The leader's fall was arrested without injury. I give the belayer an A. YMMV
If I consistantly got catches like that from someone I'd would refuse to climb with them. This time she came away unhurt, but belays like that are broken ankles waiting to happen on most climbs.
I guess you can assume that she got a hard catch in the photos because the belayer sits down. What's impossible to tell from the photos is if that's why she inverted.....it's very likely that it's a contributing factor though.
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tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2012, 8:51 AM
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How can we tell from a still photo what it felt like to catch that fall? what if the belayer felt that they were going to get dragged into the wall and was trying to keep from getting their head smashed open on one of those rocks that jut out? How would a hard catch have anyting to do with the falling climber spinning arround like that. I understand giveing someone slack till they clear a roof but other than that your job is to keep the climber off the deck. She did that just fine. You folks are a wee bit too cfritical INMOP. The belayer that I will ditch is the one who consistantly short ropes me and then fails to catch me when they pull me off. Giveing someone shit for locking off and catching a big fall is effin lame.
Where exactly are all these broken ankles from folks locking off and doing too good of a job catching leader falls? most of the ones I read about or have seen are bouldering falls, Ice climbing falls or whips where the leader fell too far and hit a ledge.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on May 1, 2012, 8:56 AM)
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jt512
May 1, 2012, 8:58 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Nice name drop  seriously it is just a still photo from above. Not even remotly close to being there or even a video. We can not accuratly tell what the weight differences are between the two climbers. The other end of the spectrum is the belayer getting yanked into the wall and getting dinged and letting go of the rope. Not going to bother name dropping as I am old enough to forget most of them but this whole soft catch thing is secondary to not decking. #1 the belayer needs to keep you off the deck and not short rope you into things or short you while you are climbing or clipping. After that it's all gravy. How you could possibly fault this belayer and somhow blame them for the climbers awkward fall is beyond me. Perhaps you simply need to feel superior to other climbers on the internet?
That belayer appears to be completely inept. I couldn't tell initially from the photos that it was a hard catch, but after USNavy pointed out that the belayer sat into the catch, I could see it. Sitting into a catch like that smashes the belayer into the wall. The climber was lucky not have broken an ankle.
Sitting into a catch is only correct to prevent to the climber from decking. Since there was no chance of that happening in this fall, sitting was completely the wrong response to this fall, and endangered the climber for no good reason. In response to a fall like this one a mediocre belayer will stand there and lock off; a better belayer will give a dynamic belay—no, you really weren't supposed to stop doing this when you stopped climbing on Goldline.
Jay
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lena_chita
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May 1, 2012, 8:59 AM
Post #29 of 55
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tradmanclimbs wrote: How can we tell from a still photo what it felt like to catch that fall? what if the belayer felt that they were going to get dragged into the wall and was trying to keep from getting their head smashed open on one of those rocks that jut out? How would a hard catch have anyting to do with the falling climber spinning arround like that. I understand giveing someone slack till they clear a roof but other than that your job is to keep the climber off the deck. She did that just fine. You folks are a wee bit too cfritical INMOP. The belayer that I will ditch is the one who consistantly short ropes me and then fails to catch me when they pull me off. Giveing someone shit for locking off and catching a big fall is effin lame.
The belayer didn't look particularly lightweight compared to climber, the danger of him being dragged into the wall was fairly slim.
And yes, I do think that the fact that the belayer ended up sitting down hard and farther away from the wall than when the fall started strongly suggests that it was a hard catch.
However, I do not think that the hardness of the catch was the major controbuting factor to the climber's inversion. it didn't make things any easier, for sure, but if Iwere to make a guess from the photos, I'd say that she likely flipped because it looks like she was trying to grab at things as she fell, and that slammingin to the rock/rope was due in part to the catch she got.
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granite_grrl
May 1, 2012, 9:06 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: How can we tell from a still photo what it felt like to catch that fall? what if the belayer felt that they were going to get dragged into the wall and was trying to keep from getting their head smashed open on one of those rocks that jut out? How would a hard catch have anyting to do with the falling climber spinning arround like that. I understand giveing someone slack till they clear a roof but other than that your job is to keep the climber off the deck. She did that just fine. You folks are a wee bit too cfritical INMOP. The belayer that I will ditch is the one who consistantly short ropes me and then fails to catch me when they pull me off. Giveing someone shit for locking off and catching a big fall is effin lame. Where exactly are all these broken ankles from folks locking off and doing too good of a job catching leader falls? most of the ones I read about or have seen are bouldering falls, Ice climbing falls or whips where the leader fell too far and hit a ledge.
It looks like he sat down. Regardless if this is because he felt he had to or not I still assume that he gave a hard catch.
When a person falls they usually tend to "pop" away from the wall, which helps them not to cheese grater down the wall and hit things which might cause them to flip over (doesn't mean that this will or will not happen with a super hard catch, I'm just saying it's more likely). Sometimes a hard catch is required, most of the time you're worse off when doing this. An experianced belayer will be able to make the call when this is appropriate, but there is nothing in the photos that would indicate that this is one those appropriate times.
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tradmanclimbs
May 1, 2012, 9:20 AM
Post #31 of 55
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90% of the time when a leader yells at their belayer and blames the belayer for all their missfoutune on the route they end up looking like a complete arse.
I weigh 190 so not usually too concerned with me getting ass dragged but many of my belayers have a serious challange if I whip. MY Gf is about 100lbs. Anything she does that actually ends up catching me is an A+ INMOP In fact any time I walk away from a fall unhurt I thank that belayer for a nice catch. have not felt the need to chew out a belayer for catching me in 30years of climbing. I even push it and fall now and then.. I guess the reason that I trust serious sport climbers to belay me more than any other climbing group is because you guys do so much faling and catching as well as nitpicking. My least trusted belayer is the moderate trad climber who never falls or catches falls
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USnavy
May 1, 2012, 9:22 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: navy. I did re read the OP. you did take these photos. That is a very nice sequence. Well composed, good exposures, good focus. I just do not get your sarcasem twords the belayer and the insinuation that her messy looking fall was somehow the belayers fault? Seems like some need on your part to pass judgement and feel superior?
Thanks, although I think I could have done better by using a faster shutter speed. Anyway, I think you are misunderstanding me. At no point have I ever accused the belayer of being responsible for her inverted fall. I use to climb with the guy belaying. All I said is that she got a hard catch, that is it. I said that because that was the very first thing I noticed when looking at the pictures and I assumed others would have picked up on that as well, so I mentioned it.
However, I will say it now, learning how to give a soft catch is important. I try not to climb with people who refuse to give me a soft catch when required. So although the belayer did keep her off the deck, he should have given her a softer catch. I have personally seen someone break an ankle on a climb because she slammed back into the wall hard as balls after a ultra static belay. You are correct that keeping the climber off the deck is always number one. But in sport climbing, the majority of the time when a climber falls, he or she is not going to deck, so a soft catch is the best option. If I had to guess, I would say maybe 6 of my single pitch lead belays have been running belays, 20 were static belays , 50 were a hybrid static/dynamic, and 750+ were dynamic. So in most cases, dynamic is the way to go.
(This post was edited by USnavy on May 1, 2012, 9:36 PM)
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redlude97
May 1, 2012, 10:24 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: 90% of the time when a leader yells at their belayer and blames the belayer for all their missfoutune on the route they end up looking like a complete arse. I weigh 190 so not usually too concerned with me getting ass dragged but many of my belayers have a serious challange if I whip. MY Gf is about 100lbs. Anything she does that actually ends up catching me is an A+ INMOP In fact any time I walk away from a fall unhurt I thank that belayer for a nice catch. have not felt the need to chew out a belayer for catching me in 30years of climbing. I even push it and fall now and then.. I guess the reason that I trust serious sport climbers to belay me more than any other climbing group is because you guys do so much faling and catching as well as nitpicking. My least trusted belayer is the moderate trad climber who never falls or catches falls
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2012, 3:15 AM
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Or not taken that long fall. Just because it is bolted does not give you an automatic get out of jail free card to fall. bad things can still happen. I know of at leat one person breaking her knee takeing a practice fall after listening to Arnies advice. You definatly better hope you get a hard catch falling on the 2nd or 3rd bolt of most climbs...
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lena_chita
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May 2, 2012, 6:56 AM
Post #35 of 55
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tradmanclimbs wrote: I weigh 190 so not usually too concerned with me getting ass dragged but many of my belayers have a serious challange if I whip.
Yes, with that weight, you probably automatically get a soft catch from most climbers, so you are pooh-pooing something that you actually get without anyone trying. And maybe people you belay either don't know the difference, or don't fall much. But given your attitude towards a soft catch, I definitely wouldn't want to be belayed by you.
I was once slammed into a wall by a relatively-lightweight, but 20pounds-heavier-than me belayer. She was used to always being lighter than her climber, and never really had to actively hop to give a soft catch. The palm-sized bruise on my hip hurt for a long time, and definitely didn't make me eager for a repeat performance.
tradmanclimbs wrote: have not felt the need to chew out a belayer for catching me in 30years of climbing. I even push it and fall now and then..
I don't know where chewing out the belayer part came from. Not many people do that, unless they are that kind of "chewing-out" people in general, in which case the chew out their belayers and everyone else for lots of different things.
The few times that I have gotten a less than optimal catch, it was the belayer who was apologizing profusely, not me chewing them out.
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csproul
May 2, 2012, 7:51 AM
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Despite your long climbing history, it sounds to me like the average sport climber takes/catches more falls in an year than you have in your entire climbing career (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that). This is a pretty common thing with trad climbers who started climbing before the modern sport climbing era. Nothing wrong with that, in fact I fall (pun intended!) somewhere between the two...but you'll forgive me if I tend to take falling/catching advice from the group of people who are actually proficient at such things.
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redlude97
May 2, 2012, 8:20 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Or not taken that long fall. Just because it is bolted does not give you an automatic get out of jail free card to fall. bad things can still happen. I know of at leat one person breaking her knee takeing a practice fall after listening to Arnies advice. You definatly better hope you get a hard catch falling on the 2nd or 3rd bolt of most climbs...
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donald949
May 2, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Hard, Soft, or way too Soft Catch?
Reviewing the pictures I see what USN is say about the belayer falling down. But I’m not exactly convinced it was a hard catch. Looks like he let a lot of rope slip through as she fell.
Look at where the rust colored rock is in pic 1. Well below her. In pictures 2 and 4 there appears to be about 18” to 24” of rope between her harness and the red biner, her top draw. In picture 5 there seems to be 6 feet of rope between her and the red biner. You are barely able to see the thin bit or red biner. Also notice where her hand is on that rust colored rock. In pic 1, her foot was well above it. In the last two pictures she is even further down from the rust colored rock.
Now look at the coil of rope next to, and under the belayer’s right foot in the last 4 pictures. It looks to be less in each of the pictures.
Therefore, my take on the sequence is that the belayer let a lot of rope out, and did not lock off at all. She probably would have been better off if he did.
Now for me, you don’t need to give a little jump for the dynamic belay, because I will be taking it from you anyway. So lock me up and don’t let the rope slip please. PLEASE!
Also, nice capture of the fall, the pics are nice, center the action, got the whole sequence. Well done.
Don
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tradmanclimbs
May 2, 2012, 3:11 PM
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The comments about how pissed some of you would be at your belayers for a hard catch led me to believe that some ass chewing and whineing might be involved. Also put enough time in at Rumny to know how things sometimes go down. " Go dood Go! you got it! pimp that biotch! Grunt, GRUNT, GRUNT! Huff Huff, Grunt! AAARRRGFUUUUUUUUKMEEE!! DoooD! Don't FUCKING SHORT ROPE ME!!! ARRGGG... FUUUK!
I actually fall somewheres in between the full time sportster and the bumbly traddie. I consider myself a Climber these days rather than a Trad climber. I am a probobly strongest on ice but trad and sport @ the same level. I NEVER hand drill anymore, Own a Bosch, rarely drill on lead these days and know how to use a Grigi though I will still give you smoother clips with an ATC. I give good catches and know when to have a soft touch and when not to, sometimes in much dire straights than single pitch sport climbs.
Interestingly enough I have been spending some time with a few rather prolific well known spurt climbers the last few years and they do not take many wild big falls. Most of that stuff is worked out on solo TR in guide shoes decideing where the bolts will go. By the time the hardware is installed and it's time to don the slippers and do the FA the climb is usually wired. they are also fairly conservative. They crank hard and work hard but are old enough to know it's not worth taking any silly risks that you do not have to.
Those whom I trust the most to belay me on the real buisness in order of prefrence.
#1 All around climber who sport climbs at or above their trad, ice and alpine levels.
#2 Competent Sport Climbers.
#3 High level trad and ice climbers.
When I climb with experienced but moderate trad and Ice climbers who shun sport climbing I automaticly go into guide mode and take zero chances of a fall.
(This post was edited by tradmanclimbs on May 3, 2012, 6:25 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
May 3, 2012, 6:38 PM
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Was that a thread killer post? hard to bash an old traddie who respects sport climbing
Seriously the way you juys jump all over some poor person in a still photo that you really can't know how it actually felt or went down at that moment in real life reminded me of the shirtless d0000d on Flesh for Lulu yelling FUUUUUUUUUK every time he took the monster whip @ the top and then trying to pin his failures on his belayer.. Weak sauce INMOP YMMV...
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redlude97
May 3, 2012, 7:02 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Was that a thread killer post? hard to bash an old traddie who respects sport climbing Seriously the way you juys jump all over some poor person in a still photo that you really can't know how it actually felt or went down at that moment in real life reminded me of the shirtless d0000d on Flesh for Lulu yelling FUUUUUUUUUK every time he took the monster whip @ the top and then trying to pin his failures on his belayer.. Weak sauce INMOP YMMV...
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sungam
May 4, 2012, 2:10 AM
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redlude97 wrote: you lack the testicular fortitude to tell someone when they messed up. That is your prerogative.
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tradmanclimbs
May 4, 2012, 3:23 AM
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Not even sure how to respond to that briliant tidbit......
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granite_grrl
May 4, 2012, 4:23 AM
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sungam wrote: redlude97 wrote: you lack the testicular fortitude to tell someone when they messed up. That is your prerogative. Yep, those damn cowardly females will just sit there and take hard falls all day long without complaint because they don't have testicles. Can we start using some less stupid phrasing?
Sadly many female climbers do have to deal with hard catches on a regular basis because of their weight and their larger male* climbing partners not working hard enough to give a soft catch.
*women can give other women hard catches too, but usually the weight differnece isn't as significant.
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redlude97
May 4, 2012, 6:55 AM
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sungam wrote: redlude97 wrote: you lack the testicular fortitude to tell someone when they messed up. That is your prerogative. Yep, those damn cowardly females will just sit there and take hard falls all day long without complaint because they don't have testicles. Can we start using some less stupid phrasing?
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sungam
May 4, 2012, 6:59 AM
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redlude97 wrote: sungam wrote: redlude97 wrote: you lack the testicular fortitude to tell someone when they messed up. That is your prerogative. Yep, those damn cowardly females will just sit there and take hard falls all day long without complaint because they don't have testicles. Can we start using some less stupid phrasing? yep, total lapse on my part. Didn't mean to offend anyone except to rile up tradman a bit, sorry if that came off overly offensive to anyone. I know plenty of women who I climb with who not only appreciate a soft catch, but also have enough spine to speak their mind. Its funny when the person who is railing about whining about hard catches, at close to 200lb has likely never had a truly hard catch in his life.
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tradmanclimbs
May 4, 2012, 7:07 AM
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You guys really are something special........
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granite_grrl
May 4, 2012, 7:44 AM
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sungam wrote: redlude97 wrote: sungam wrote: redlude97 wrote: you lack the testicular fortitude to tell someone when they messed up. That is your prerogative. Yep, those damn cowardly females will just sit there and take hard falls all day long without complaint because they don't have testicles. Can we start using some less stupid phrasing? yep, total lapse on my part. Didn't mean to offend anyone except to rile up tradman a bit, sorry if that came off overly offensive to anyone. I know plenty of women who I climb with who not only appreciate a soft catch, but also have enough spine to speak their mind. Its funny when the person who is railing about whining about hard catches, at close to 200lb has likely never had a truly hard catch in his life. Yeah, no problem dude. I assumed you didn't mean it like that, I just dislike the phrases after a close female friend of mine told me how much the "man up!" etc. comments at the crag made her feel like no one respected her and upset her sometimes. So I try to stomp on it when I can. 
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notapplicable
May 4, 2012, 8:05 AM
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donald949 wrote: USnavy wrote: I was rummaging through some of the climbing photos I have taken in the past and across something interesting. If I remember correctly, this is her first time leading: Note the super hard catch being given by the belayer... [img]http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9976/img4922n.jpg[/img] [img]http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/4825/img4923w.jpg[/img] [img]http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9441/img4924q.jpg[/img] [img]http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/2095/img4925r.jpg[/img] [img]http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7671/img4927v.jpg[/img] [img]http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4320/img4928g.jpg[/img] [img]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1179/img4929x.jpg[/img] [img]http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/3498/img4930b.jpg[/img] Hard, Soft, or way too Soft Catch? Reviewing the pictures I see what USN is say about the belayer falling down. But I’m not exactly convinced it was a hard catch. Looks like he let a lot of rope slip through as she fell. Look at where the rust colored rock is in pic 1. Well below her. In pictures 2 and 4 there appears to be about 18” to 24” of rope between her harness and the red biner, her top draw. In picture 5 there seems to be 6 feet of rope between her and the red biner. You are barely able to see the thin bit or red biner. Also notice where her hand is on that rust colored rock. In pic 1, her foot was well above it. In the last two pictures she is even further down from the rust colored rock. Now look at the coil of rope next to, and under the belayer’s right foot in the last 4 pictures. It looks to be less in each of the pictures. Therefore, my take on the sequence is that the belayer let a lot of rope out, and did not lock off at all. She probably would have been better off if he did. Now for me, you don’t need to give a little jump for the dynamic belay, because I will be taking it from you anyway. So lock me up and don’t let the rope slip please. PLEASE! Also, nice capture of the fall, the pics are nice, center the action, got the whole sequence. Well done. Don
Interesting thought but I'm skeptical for two reasons.
1. The position of his brake hand makes me think he is using an auto locking belay device. It doesn't look like he is doing any actual braking.
2. I don't know the belayer from adam but I don't run in to many climbers who can/will let rope run as a way of giving a soft catch. It's just not a very common tool for people to have in their toolbox and those who do, would know that a light jump would be a more effective way to provide a soft catch in that situation.
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donald949
May 4, 2012, 8:39 AM
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notapplicable wrote: donald949 wrote: USnavy wrote: I was rummaging through some of the climbing photos I have taken in the past and across something interesting. If I remember correctly, this is her first time leading: Note the super hard catch being given by the belayer...   [img]http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/9441/img4924q.jpg[/img]   [img]http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/4320/img4928g.jpg[/img] [img]http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1179/img4929x.jpg[/img] [img]http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/3498/img4930b.jpg[/img] Hard, Soft, or way too Soft Catch? Reviewing the pictures I see what USN is say about the belayer falling down. But I’m not exactly convinced it was a hard catch. Looks like he let a lot of rope slip through as she fell. Look at where the rust colored rock is in pic 1. Well below her. In pictures 2 and 4 there appears to be about 18” to 24” of rope between her harness and the red biner, her top draw. In picture 5 there seems to be 6 feet of rope between her and the red biner. You are barely able to see the thin bit or red biner. Also notice where her hand is on that rust colored rock. In pic 1, her foot was well above it. In the last two pictures she is even further down from the rust colored rock. Now look at the coil of rope next to, and under the belayer’s right foot in the last 4 pictures. It looks to be less in each of the pictures. Therefore, my take on the sequence is that the belayer let a lot of rope out, and did not lock off at all. She probably would have been better off if he did. Now for me, you don’t need to give a little jump for the dynamic belay, because I will be taking it from you anyway. So lock me up and don’t let the rope slip please. PLEASE! Also, nice capture of the fall, the pics are nice, center the action, got the whole sequence. Well done. Don Interesting thought but I'm skeptical for two reasons. 1. The position of his brake hand makes me think he is using an auto locking belay device. It doesn't look like he is doing any actual braking. 2. I don't know the belayer from adam but I don't run in to many climbers who can/will let rope run as a way of giving a soft catch. It's just not a very common tool for people to have in their toolbox and those who do, would know that a light jump would be a more effective way to provide a soft catch in that situation.
However, she fell a long way when it appears in pic 1 and 2 her feet where below the top bolt. There also is not much slack seen in pic 4. But she significantly lower and more rope out by 5.
Anyrate just my observations.
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