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bearbreeder
May 1, 2012, 7:05 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Yes there is a difference between webbing and nylon slings. I like being challenged, I'm a professional guide, it's my career, I own one of the largest guiding outfits in the Eastern US. This is what I do for a living. Pics are hard to show what is exactly happening but I can show pics of cars too if you want haha! Because this thread is going nowhere. Safety is my biggest concern and I educate climbers on a daily basis of innovative techniques. The most common are using static instead of webbing, tying that ridiculous and useless fishermans knot above your tie-in figure eight and people saying any helmet is good for climbing.
http://www.sterlingrope.com/...7/Webbing_and_Slings
in addition to the yates link i posted above ... you can basically see that for some sling sterling basically uses the same flat webbing they sell in bulk ...
guess you know better than yates and sterling 
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wonderwoman
May 1, 2012, 7:05 PM
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acorneau wrote: NEGuiding wrote: If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do. I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer. 
That would be cruel.
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njrox
May 1, 2012, 7:07 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: NEGuiding wrote: Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community. I'm not sure this is what guides use static rope these days. I'm not a guide, but I know a few. The reason I know they use them is because static rope tends to be easier to set up and break down quickly, which is a common necessity for guides at single-pitch crags.
Guides show up with discount-purchased or company-provided 150 foot Petzl Vector Static ropes. $$$$
Meanwhile, climbers are buying PMI-EZ bend at .80 a foot, by the foot. Of couse you're going to need to supplement the length with cord or webbing. Especially when relying on trees for anchors.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 7:15 PM
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 7:18 PM
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Good point NJrox, money becomes an issue. Definitely more affordable but remember it's yours r anothers life on the line so should money be an issue? If you can't afford the proper gear to play outdoors then you shouldn't be doing it.
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Gmburns2000
May 1, 2012, 7:27 PM
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njrox wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: NEGuiding wrote: Wonderwoman, why do you think static rope is the choice of guides nowadays? Because webbing isn't reliable. You ask NAY guide what they use for top rope set ups and their first choice will be just that, static rope. There's no discussion on that issue. Sadly the choice of static rope chooisng came about from webbing failures during climbing accidents. Just like closing a clove hitch is common practice now too. An accident happen, testing and studies were done and guiding organization came to common conclusions to resolve these problems and limit future accidents in the guiding industry. Eventually they will flow down into rock gyms and the recreational climbing community. I'm not sure this is what guides use static rope these days. I'm not a guide, but I know a few. The reason I know they use them is because static rope tends to be easier to set up and break down quickly, which is a common necessity for guides at single-pitch crags. Guides show up with discount-purchased or company-provided 150 foot Petzl Vector Static ropes. $$$$ Meanwhile, climbers are buying PMI-EZ bend at .80 a foot, by the foot. Of couse you're going to need to supplement the length with cord or webbing. Especially when relying on trees for anchors.
that may be part of it as well, but they've all told me static was simply easier.
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johnwesely
May 1, 2012, 7:27 PM
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wonderwoman wrote: acorneau wrote: NEGuiding wrote: If any of you are in the North Carolina, New York, Connecticut or New Jersey area, call me up and I'll put you on one of our top rope course for FREE. Mention this post and the class is yours free of charge and I guarantee you'll have your eyes opened to new fully trusted methods. My job as a guide is to educate the climbing community and that's what I do. I think EVERYBODY needs to take him up on his offer. That would be cruel.
I actually considered it, but then I realized I have no desire to ever take a class on top roping.
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johnwesely
May 1, 2012, 7:31 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: And ncrockclimber chimes in ;) I think I know who you are. Funny...I hear NEGuiding is taking about 80-90% of the NC clients out climbing and local egotistical guide services are struggling ;)
I guess you are talking about Fox Mountain Guides? If they only have 10% market share now, why have I heard of them and not you? Also, if you are rolling in the dough like you claim you are, how come you are not supporting local access groups like Fox does?
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 7:35 PM
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ncrockclimber
May 1, 2012, 7:36 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: And ncrockclimber chimes in ;) I think I know who you are. Funny...I hear NEGuiding is taking about 80-90% of the NC clients out climbing and local egotistical guide services are struggling ;)
It is nice to see that you are ready to act like an ass to another professional without provocation. You just can't help digging your hole a little deeper.
Based on your comments above, you seem to think I am Adam of Fox Mountain Guides. I am not. I do, however, know him in passing and by reputation. I also know a few folks that have guided for him. Unlike you, his reputation for being a knowledgeable guide and proficient instructor is well know.
Lest you think I am being disingenuous, I post under NC Rock Climber here, on Super Topo and Mtn Project. I lived in NC from 2005 to 2011. I moved to Phoenix in May of last year. That info is in my MP profile. I have also referenced my move in a few of my MP posts where I have been asking a lot of noob questions about the AZ and Utah. I am not and never have been a guide in NC.
To put it another way, once again you prove that you don't know what you are taking about.
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madscientist
May 1, 2012, 7:40 PM
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The only "failures" I know of ones like the one John Sherman experienced.
http://www.supertopo.com/...9434&f=0&b=0
However, this was using a thin slings girth hitched together, and not the one inch tubular webbing used for top-rope setups. Before you go and panic about using dyneema, read the link I posted carefully. There are many things to consider.
I do believe that there was one more accident like the Sherman one, but I don't recall the specifics.
I also hope that NEGuiding is not using this sort of accident to make the blanket statement that webbing should not be used to set up top ropes.
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marc801
May 1, 2012, 7:46 PM
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ncrockclimber wrote: It is nice to see that you are ready to act like an ass to another professional without provocation. You just can't help digging your hole a little deeper.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2154888
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MFC
May 1, 2012, 7:48 PM
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I think the "biggest" problem of using webbing as top rope anchor material, is when it hangs over the edge of the cliff.
Webbing is not as cut resistant as static line.
Tom Moyer presented a paper at ITRS, "Qualifying a Rescue Rope."
In that paper he tested webbing vs. static line in various "cutting/abrasion" scenarios.
His paper can be viewed/downloaded at:
www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing
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wonderwoman
May 1, 2012, 7:49 PM
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Yes, I am aware of the issues, limits and controversies with dyneema. I agree that it is different than a top rope webbing failure.
madscientist wrote: I also hope that NEGuiding is not using this sort of accident to make the blanket statement that webbing should not be used to set up top ropes.
In the previous thread regarding a top rope accident he had made a blanket statement about never using webbing to set up a top rope and to only use static rope.
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5dGbpE8J
May 1, 2012, 7:57 PM
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A bit off topic, but I've been wanting to get a static rope for top rope set ups. I took an anchor setting class and really liked that approach.
Would this be appropriate and any suggestion for a good length to get?
http://www.rei.com/product/472013/pmi-e-z-bend-sport-11mm-static-rope
Thanks.
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madscientist
May 1, 2012, 7:59 PM
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MFC wrote: I think the "biggest" problem of using webbing as top rope anchor material, is when it hangs over the edge of the cliff. Webbing is not as cut resistant as static line. Tom Moyer presented a paper at ITRS, "Qualifying a Rescue Rope." In that paper he tested webbing vs. static line in various "cutting/abrasion" scenarios. His paper can be viewed/downloaded at: www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing
That is an informative link, and might have saved some trouble earlier. Thanks for sharing. I am convinced that a good static rope is better, but not convinced that webbing is a death sentence.
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 8:01 PM
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madscientist wrote: MFC wrote: I think the "biggest" problem of using webbing as top rope anchor material, is when it hangs over the edge of the cliff. Webbing is not as cut resistant as static line. Tom Moyer presented a paper at ITRS, "Qualifying a Rescue Rope." In that paper he tested webbing vs. static line in various "cutting/abrasion" scenarios. His paper can be viewed/downloaded at: www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing That is an informative link, and might have saved some trouble earlier. Thanks for sharing. I am convinced that a good static rope is better, but not convinced that webbing is a death sentence.
I agree, great test on that and others too on his website.
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bearbreeder
May 1, 2012, 8:05 PM
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many if not most TR setups dont run over an edge around here...
i still find it hilarious that the someone will use slings, but not webbing ... which manufacturers make their sewn slings out of (sterling, yates)
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 8:06 PM
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5dGbpE8J wrote: A bit off topic, but I've been wanting to get a static rope for top rope set ups. I took an anchor setting class and really liked that approach. Would this be appropriate and any suggestion for a good length to get? http://www.rei.com/product/472013/pmi-e-z-bend-sport-11mm-static-rope Thanks.
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jakedatc
May 1, 2012, 8:16 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Like I stated above, webbing dries out FAST when exposed to sunlight like it is when used in a top-rope set up all day or even just for a few hours which weakens it by drying it out. We've all seen this happen.
Bullshit. If that is so then a Rap anchors on trees across the country would be useless hours after they were put up.
AND you say you put webbing rap anchors on routes so in your opinion you are setting a trap for someone else?
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NEGuiding
May 1, 2012, 8:18 PM
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It's a fact on what UV rays do too webbing or any material for that matter haha! And I "replace" them on routes. But we're talking about a top-roping environment NOT a simple rappel anchor one might encounter on a route slung around a tree.
Thanks for the pic post too ;)
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johnwesely
May 1, 2012, 8:21 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: Rather not mention any names, I respect the company you mentioned and no it's not them. We've only been in the NC area for a few months. And We don't support the only access org down here, the SECC because of the bolting issue they did at Crowders Mntn. Clearly shows their lack of knowledge and you can contact Petzl on that matter. The SECC put Petzl long life bolts into kyanite quartzite stone at Crowders, WRONG choice for that type of rock and Petzl sent us a letter confirming it that we showed to the state park service.
You are so well informed that you didn't know the acronym for the Southeastern Climbers Coalition was SCC, and you didn't even know about the Carolina's Climbers Coalition.
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jakedatc
May 1, 2012, 8:22 PM
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NEGuiding wrote: It's a fact on what UV rays do too webbing or any material for that matter haha! And I "replace" them on routes. But we're talking about a top-roping environment NOT a simple rappel anchor one might encounter on a route slung around a tree. Thanks for the pic post too ;)
Yes, but if a TR anchor is weakened in one climbing session how is a sling put around a tree that is left out for weeks and months and used perhaps on a daily basis going to react?
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