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SylviaSmile


May 15, 2012, 12:09 PM
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Is NFL Football Immoral?
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I came across an article that raises this question. What do you all think? Mostly harmless or our modern "hunger games"?


notapplicable


May 16, 2012, 4:32 PM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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The athletes are well paid, autonomous, consenting adults. Morality has nothing to do with it.

Football players are no different than miners with respiratory disease or fisherman drowning at sea. There are lots of dangerous jobs in this world. It's just the nature of the beast.


SylviaSmile


May 16, 2012, 9:02 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
The athletes are well paid, autonomous, consenting adults. Morality has nothing to do with it.

Football players are no different than miners with respiratory disease or fisherman drowning at sea. There are lots of dangerous jobs in this world. It's just the nature of the beast.

Well, part of the point was that it isn't just the athletes consenting to the sport: all of us who view it as entertainment also participate in the "industry" of pro sports. Also, the fisherman drowning is incidental to his trade--kind of like a rock climber falling splat, it's not what he's setting out to do--whereas hard hits really are a big part of what makes football football.


pinktricam


May 17, 2012, 12:47 AM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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SylviaSmile wrote:
I came across an article that raises this question. What do you all think? Mostly harmless or our modern "hunger games"?

I think it would be really cool if they could some how incorporate Tasers into the game.


chadnsc


May 17, 2012, 5:57 AM
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Re: [pinktricam] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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pinktricam wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
I came across an article that raises this question. What do you all think? Mostly harmless or our modern "hunger games"?

I think it would be really cool if they could some how incorporate Tasers into the game.

Two hand touch football but with taser gloves! Pinkie that is a great idea!


notapplicable


May 17, 2012, 6:09 AM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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SylviaSmile wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
The athletes are well paid, autonomous, consenting adults. Morality has nothing to do with it.

Football players are no different than miners with respiratory disease or fisherman drowning at sea. There are lots of dangerous jobs in this world. It's just the nature of the beast.

Well, part of the point was that it isn't just the athletes consenting to the sport: all of us who view it as entertainment also participate in the "industry" of pro sports. Also, the fisherman drowning is incidental to his trade--kind of like a rock climber falling splat, it's not what he's setting out to do--whereas hard hits really are a big part of what makes football football.

That sounds a bit like semantics to me. I'm sure it is of no consolation to a logger that his being crushed by a tree is incidental, rather than inherent, to his trade.

As to the viewer participation, I see no difference between that form of "demand" and the demand side of the supply and demand equation found in all other trades and business where people are injured or killed every day.


rmsusa


May 17, 2012, 6:24 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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That sounds a bit like semantics to me. I'm sure it is of no consolation to a logger that his being crushed by a tree is incidental, rather than inherent, to his trade.

It's actually more than semantics. Intention is a large part of moral theory.

A death is a death, that's true, but the intention of the act that caused the death makes a great difference in law and in moral interpretation. A person who forms a plan to kill and actually does it, is, and (IMHO) should be, judged before the law to have committed a more morally reprehensible act than a person who loses control of his vehicle (for whatever reason) and mortally injures a pedestrian.

So .... the death of a person in an industrial accident is quite different, morally, from the death of a person engaged in an activity that has injury as a specific intent. Boxing, anyone?


tready


May 17, 2012, 1:26 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
The athletes are well paid, autonomous, consenting adults. Morality has nothing to do with it.

This ^

I think a large part of the lawsuits involves allegations the NFL tried to hide evidence that concussions were a very real threat.


notapplicable


May 18, 2012, 7:58 AM
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Re: [tready] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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tready wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
The athletes are well paid, autonomous, consenting adults. Morality has nothing to do with it.

This ^

I think a large part of the lawsuits involves allegations the NFL tried to hide evidence that concussions were a very real threat.

And THAT is immoral. If it turns out to be the case, I hope the fines and settlements are substantial.


notapplicable


May 18, 2012, 8:11 AM
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Re: [rmsusa] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
That sounds a bit like semantics to me. I'm sure it is of no consolation to a logger that his being crushed by a tree is incidental, rather than inherent, to his trade.

It's actually more than semantics. Intention is a large part of moral theory.

A death is a death, that's true, but the intention of the act that caused the death makes a great difference in law and in moral interpretation. A person who forms a plan to kill and actually does it, is, and (IMHO) should be, judged before the law to have committed a more morally reprehensible act than a person who loses control of his vehicle (for whatever reason) and mortally injures a pedestrian.

So .... the death of a person in an industrial accident is quite different, morally, from the death of a person engaged in an activity that has injury as a specific intent. Boxing, anyone?

While the bold is correct, I think you are off base on two points.

1. Football players and boxers give informed consent, victims of violent crimes do not.

2. In football, with the exception of a few "bounty programs", injuring other players is not the goal, or even an approved means of achieving the goal, which is winning. Boxing, MMA and all combat bases sports are indeed deep into some grey areas in that regard.

That said, I think #1 supersedes most all considerations, in most cases.


SylviaSmile


May 18, 2012, 8:49 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
rmsusa wrote:
In reply to:
That sounds a bit like semantics to me. I'm sure it is of no consolation to a logger that his being crushed by a tree is incidental, rather than inherent, to his trade.

It's actually more than semantics. Intention is a large part of moral theory.

A death is a death, that's true, but the intention of the act that caused the death makes a great difference in law and in moral interpretation. A person who forms a plan to kill and actually does it, is, and (IMHO) should be, judged before the law to have committed a more morally reprehensible act than a person who loses control of his vehicle (for whatever reason) and mortally injures a pedestrian.

So .... the death of a person in an industrial accident is quite different, morally, from the death of a person engaged in an activity that has injury as a specific intent. Boxing, anyone?

While the bold is correct, I think you are off base on two points.

1. Football players and boxers give informed consent, victims of violent crimes do not.

2. In football, with the exception of a few "bounty programs", injuring other players is not the goal, or even an approved means of achieving the goal, which is winning. Boxing, MMA and all combat bases sports are indeed deep into some grey areas in that regard.

That said, I think #1 supersedes most all considerations, in most cases.

Ok, leaving aside consent, the question whether it's right to participate in something that is likely to severely injure the humans involved in it is moral still remains. Right? Just because someone can consent to it doesn't mean it's necessarily a good moral choice.


Partner macherry


May 18, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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the actual article asks if WATCHING nfl football is immoral.


SylviaSmile


May 18, 2012, 2:53 PM
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Re: [macherry] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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Right, because by watching you're facilitating the advertising revenue that makes pro football possible.

(edited for grammar typo)


(This post was edited by SylviaSmile on May 18, 2012, 2:54 PM)


Partner j_ung


May 20, 2012, 11:10 AM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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I would find the banning of contact sports (or the watching of them) to be less moral. MUCH less.


guangzhou


May 20, 2012, 8:13 PM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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Morality is decided by the society who is living with it. Based on how many people they are who enjoy watching or participating in football, I would say that in American society, football is not immoral.


veganclimber


May 20, 2012, 9:39 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Morality is decided by the society who is living with it. Based on how many people they are who enjoy watching or participating in football, I would say that in American society, football is not immoral.

A lot of people liked watching Christians being fed to lions too.


guangzhou


May 20, 2012, 10:00 PM
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veganclimber wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Morality is decided by the society who is living with it. Based on how many people they are who enjoy watching or participating in football, I would say that in American society, football is not immoral.

A lot of people liked watching Christians being fed to lions too.

And the idea of what is moral and immoral has evolved, changed if you prefer, over time.

I also don't think the Christians found it very moral.


rmsusa


May 21, 2012, 7:55 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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The crux of the moral theory is "incidental" as opposed to "intentional". Informed consent has very little to do with it.


SylviaSmile


May 21, 2012, 8:01 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Morality is decided by the society who is living with it. Based on how many people they are who enjoy watching or participating in football, I would say that in American society, football is not immoral.

I have big problems with this statement. Couldn't you equally say that in countries and societies where women are held to be second-hand citizens, that this kind of treatment is "moral" according to the standards within the society? Which makes morality mean nothing at all.


lena_chita
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May 21, 2012, 8:24 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Morality is decided by the society who is living with it. Based on how many people they are who enjoy watching or participating in football, I would say that in American society, football is not immoral.

I have big problems with this statement. Couldn't you equally say that in countries and societies where women are held to be second-hand citizens, that this kind of treatment is "moral" according to the standards within the society? Which makes morality mean nothing at all.


Yep, You might have a problem with this statement, but it is what it is. Your view of right and wrong (and, hence, of moral and immoral) is not shared by other cultures.

The society's view of what is right and wrong can change over time. Once upon a time, women were held to be second-class citizens in mainstream Western culture, too. And while we came to see that as wrong, the people of those times, including many women, didn't see anything wrong with it. It didn't change overnight, it is still changing and evolving, and yes, even in the Muslim world.

And I am sure I can come up with a list of things that you likely (based on some other of your posts in the past) consider wrong and immoral, but other people don't. Assisted suicide? Multiple concurrent sex partners? The majority of Western (US specifically) culture still considers those to be immoral. But there is a sizable minority that thinks otherwise. I would put those items in the "it is changing and evolving right now" category. Give it couple centuries, and ask people then...


SylviaSmile


May 21, 2012, 8:34 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
SylviaSmile wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
Morality is decided by the society who is living with it. Based on how many people they are who enjoy watching or participating in football, I would say that in American society, football is not immoral.

I have big problems with this statement. Couldn't you equally say that in countries and societies where women are held to be second-hand citizens, that this kind of treatment is "moral" according to the standards within the society? Which makes morality mean nothing at all.


Yep, You might have a problem with this statement, but it is what it is. Your view of right and wrong (and, hence, of moral and immoral) is not shared by other cultures.

The society's view of what is right and wrong can change over time. Once upon a time, women were held to be second-class citizens in mainstream Western culture, too. And while we came to see that as wrong, the people of those times, including many women, didn't see anything wrong with it. It didn't change overnight, it is still changing and evolving, and yes, even in the Muslim world.

And I am sure I can come up with a list of things that you likely (based on some other of your posts in the past) consider wrong and immoral, but other people don't. Assisted suicide? Multiple concurrent sex partners? The majority of Western (US specifically) culture still considers those to be immoral. But there is a sizable minority that thinks otherwise. I would put those items in the "it is changing and evolving right now" category. Give it couple centuries, and ask people then...

If morality is only an evaluation of what most people in a given time and place find acceptable, it almost seems as if "right and wrong" in a traditional sense don't necessarily play into it. In other words, if I say, "I think Muslim oppression of women is immoral," does that just mean that I personally don't find it acceptable, rather than that I am appealing to some standard of right and wrong to which this situation fails to conform?


SylviaSmile


May 21, 2012, 8:55 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
And I am sure I can come up with a list of things that you likely (based on some other of your posts in the past) consider wrong and immoral, but other people don't.

This is what fascinates me. I could also come up with a list of things that I consider wrong and other people may not--but what I really want is a list of what we can all agree on is wrong on some objective level and isn't going to "evolve." Pedophilia? Murder? Is there a short list, or is it truly all relative?


lena_chita
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May 21, 2012, 9:25 AM
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SylviaSmile wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
And I am sure I can come up with a list of things that you likely (based on some other of your posts in the past) consider wrong and immoral, but other people don't.

This is what fascinates me. I could also come up with a list of things that I consider wrong and other people may not--but what I really want is a list of what we can all agree on is wrong on some objective level and isn't going to "evolve." Pedophilia? Murder? Is there a short list, or is it truly all relative?

There is a short list (VERY short) that seems to be accepted in all cultures and times. But even then it is nuanced.


The Golden Rule ("Don't do to others what you don't want done to you", or my preference-- the same maxim in a positive form, "treat others as you want to be treated") is pretty universal.

Murder is bad, pretty much everyone agrees. (Well, except... murder of a convicted criminal? Murder of the guy from the other tribe, who is trying to hunt deer on your turf? The nuances start accruing...)

Stealing is wrong in every culture that has a concept of personal and private property. (but many have different rules applying to their own tribe/group, vs. the outsiders--e.g. it is O.K. to steal the horses from Indians (Mexicans, the guys on the other side of the river, put whatever you want here), but you try it in town, and the sheriff will sort you out very quickly, and nobody would think it immoral if you hang for that crime!

Pedophilia... Yes, most cultures consider sex with pre-pubescent children to be wrong. But when it comes to post-pubescence, cultures vary greatly. In some places it is not wrong to marry a 13yo girl. And the modern views on this subject in Western culture are really quite recent, in historic sense.

But much of what an average American would list as moral or immoral behavior is really cultural.


tready


May 21, 2012, 9:26 AM
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Re: [SylviaSmile] Is NFL Football Immoral? [In reply to]
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SylviaSmile wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
And I am sure I can come up with a list of things that you likely (based on some other of your posts in the past) consider wrong and immoral, but other people don't.

This is what fascinates me. I could also come up with a list of things that I consider wrong and other people may not--but what I really want is a list of what we can all agree on is wrong on some objective level and isn't going to "evolve." Pedophilia? Murder? Is there a short list, or is it truly all relative?

I think that list, if there is one, would be incredibly short.


SylviaSmile


May 21, 2012, 10:14 AM
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If something is "wrong" in one culture but "acceptable" in another, and there is interaction between the two cultures, how do you decide which culture's version of morality should be used?

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