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Sumpumpolis
Jun 1, 2012, 6:05 AM
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Two days ago, A friend of mine was climbing and while rappelling down to a set of anchors he ran out the end of his rope. he fell something a little short of 50 feet, and has several broken ribs, a broken hip, a broken ankle, and lots of internal damage. but, is going to live with no permanent injuries. this does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even. and having experienced climbers with you. well, hmm, i'm not the most experienced, best leave this to others to decide lessons learned... anyways, it was the luckiest fall ever as well, apparently he fell between several large rocks, a stump, anything harder and more dangerous than the dirt he landed on. plus it took only about 15 minutes for rescue to arrive
(This post was edited by Sumpumpolis on Jun 1, 2012, 6:17 PM)
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iknowfear
Jun 1, 2012, 7:30 AM
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Sumpumpolis wrote: Two days ago, A friend of mine was climbing and while rappelling down to a set of anchors he ran out the end of his rope. he fell something a little short of 50 feet, and has several broken ribs, a broken hip, a broken ankle, and lots of internal damage. but, is going to live with no permanent injuries. this does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even. and having experienced climbers with you. it was the luckiest fall ever as well, apparently he fell between several large rocks, a stump, anything harder and more dangerous than the dirt he landed on.
I wish your friend a quick recovery! all the best.
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sungam
Jun 1, 2012, 11:33 AM
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Hey, hopes your buddy feels better soon. 99% of the time there is no real reason not to tie knots on the ends of your ropes, as you said it should really be done all the time (even if the rope is long enough in case it's uneven).
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 12:35 PM
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First off, glad your friend is going to be ok.
In reply to: does work as a good example of why knots at the ends of the rope are important... and having someone at the bottom to tell you when your ropes are even.
This is not good advice. I appreciate the sentiment, but this was not the cause of the accident. The cause of the accident is very clear, your friend was not PAYING ATTENTION TO THE ENDS OF THE ROPE.
Period.
Knots in the ends do have their place, but they are not an absolute.
Let me give you an example. You are on a multi pitch rappel. You've tied knots in both ends of the rope. It's insanely windy out. The ends of the ropes are now whipping about and there are cracks, trees, flakes etc everywhere. A big gust of wind comes along and blows your carefully knotted ropes behind a flake and they get stuck.
Now you have a real problem. You can be just as dead stranded off the ground because you can't clear the lines as you are if you go off the ends.
A stranded climber is a dead climber.
I've had rope ends blowing literally 30 feet over my head whipping around in all directions. I promise, I was very glad there were no knots in the ends.
Nothing is going to replace your awareness of the current situation. PAY ATTENTION. If you are rapping and having a hard time finding the anchors, STOP. Re-assess your situation. Keep an eye on the ends of the rope. You can always fix the problem if you get below the anchors caused you missed them.
Again I hope your friend recovers quickly!
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 3:23 PM
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This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating.
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6pacfershur
Jun 1, 2012, 3:25 PM
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socalclimber wrote: ....A stranded climber is a dead climber....
would you consider Joe Simpson stranded on Siula Grande?
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bearbreeder
Jun 1, 2012, 3:43 PM
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if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine
its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ...
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notapplicable
Jun 1, 2012, 4:26 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ...
Quite likely?? I would say its absolutely certain. People tend to epic when their ropes get stuck but the don't often die.
Epicing can be fun. Dying never is.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 4:40 PM
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6pacfershur wrote: socalclimber wrote: ....A stranded climber is a dead climber.... would you consider Joe Simpson stranded on Siula Grande?
I would consider Joe Simpson fucking lucky at best....
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 4:45 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: if its that windy bag it ... you can still have knots just fine its quite likely that more people have died rapping off ends than having knots stuck i cracks on windy days ...
I don't know where you climb, but I've ben in plenty of places where "bagging it" wasn't an option. You need to get down.
The last thing I need is a stuck rope. And plenty people have died because they got stranded on a cliff face when bad weather rolled in. It happens.
Don't kid yourselves.
I know this is noob.com, but believe it not, some of us actually climb in areas that aren't exactly easily accessible.
Not all climbing has to happen with in sight of your car or a trail.
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bearbreeder
Jun 1, 2012, 4:50 PM
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thats yr judgement call ...
short of lightning storms ... i cant think of weather conditions where i wouldnt spend an extra few min bagging the rope if it was THAT windy ... ropes can get stuck even without knots, why risk it if the wind is blowing more than a porn star
when yr rushing yr more likely to eff it all up regardless ...
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Jun 1, 2012, 4:52 PM)
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 5:15 PM
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Rudmin wrote: This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating.
Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating.
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viciado
Jun 1, 2012, 5:21 PM
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As you said up-thread: "I appreciate your sentiment," but bagging is certainly an option to consider. Yes, there are instances where it might be a disadvantage to bag the rope. Your opposition simply comes across to me as being too strongly against the consideration it is worth. A bagged rope can potentially compensate for the two or three minutes it takes to flake it into the top of a day pack over the epic of freeing (a) stuck end(s). No, bagging the rope is not always the best solution, but neither is leaving the ropes un-knotted.
On another point, maybe I'm not following your reasoning very well, but I'm not sure why you referred to difficulty of access in regard to this question. Bagging a rope doesn't require special heavy duty equipment. I can imagine circumstances in which I would not have a pack I could re-task to serve the purpose, but those would more likely be at a crag with good access than on a remote multi-pitch. What is your thinking on that?
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 5:22 PM
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olderic wrote: Rudmin wrote: This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating. Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating.
I stitch mine through the sheath. It doesn't move until it's almost completely disintegrated.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:26 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: thats yr judgement call ... short of lightning storms ... i cant think of weather conditions where i wouldnt spend an extra few min bagging the rope if it was THAT windy ... ropes can get stuck even without knots, why risk it if the wind is blowing more than a porn star when yr rushing yr more likely to eff it all up regardless ...
No, that's not a judgement call, that's plain old fashioned experience and common sense. Apparently you have not done enough multi pitch climbing to understand my point.
Knotting your ends all the time can only serve to screw you in high wind situations on formations that have a lot of "features". If the wall is blank, then it's no big deal.
I've been in more than my fair share of situations where rapping a long route was the only choice, and bagging it wasn't an option.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:33 PM
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I'll make my point even clearer. There are people on this thread who clearly are thinking in a short term mentality rather than the bigger picture.
Yes I have left a rope behind because it got stuck and got it back later.
My biggest point to the OP is that this false idea that knots will save life rather than awareness is WRONG. It is an option, not a rule.
On multi pitch routes, which the OP and others eventually will end up on, and rapping is the only option, then you can't "bag" the rope if it gets stuck because you tied knots in it and the winds blew one of the knots into crack a flake. Now it's stuck. Bad weather could be rolling in. Know you've got a problem.
It's bad advice.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:38 PM
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Whoever commented on the blind trust of middle marks in the rope was 100% correct.
Yet another distraction from the true heart of the matter, PAY ATTENTION.
I promise, I rap more in one month the most of you will do in a year. It's my job. I'm constantly having to rappel routes first so the client comes down second and I can give them a fireman's belay.
I never knot my ends.
I pay attention.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:42 PM
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robdotcalm wrote: socalclimber wrote: [I've been in more than my fair share of situations where rapping a long route was the only choice, and bagging it wasn't an option. I'm wondering if a confusion has occurred because of 2 different meanings of the word "bag". One defintion is to place the rope in a pack and feed it out as one rappels in order to keep the rope from blowing about in the wind. The second meaning is to just quit what one is doing. rob.calm
That's an excellent point. My take on the response may well have been misunderstood on my part. If so, then I stand corrected.
I don't personally "bag" the rope. I have on the other taken the butterfly and hung it below me off my harness and payed out the rope to deal with the wind issues.
Excellent observation, and if I did indeed misinterpret that point, then my apologies are in order.
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 5:45 PM
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Rudmin wrote: olderic wrote: Rudmin wrote: This is a good reminder to remark the middle of my rope. Lately I've just been guesstimating. Never ever trust a middle marker - at least on the first rap of the day. I bet more people have gone off the end after mistaking a mark for the middle (in some cases the mark actually once was the middle) then have gone off the ends by mis-guestimating. I stitch mine through the sheath. It doesn't move until it's almost completely disintegrated.
And when you loan it to a friend who chops 10 feet off the end because of a damaged sheath.... I expect your response will be along the lines of "I never loan out my lead rope". Blind faith in "never" and "always" never ends up happily.
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socalclimber
Jun 1, 2012, 5:50 PM
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Ain't that the truth. If we're not using my rope, I always ask, "how long is this rope?"
I got bit by that one a long time ago. Never again.
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 5:56 PM
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It's true, I don't loan any of my ropes. I also don't have asshole friends that would break my gear and not tell me. I also know what the end of my rope looks like.
I suppose, gremlins could sneak into my gear at night and take out the middle mark and restitch it 5 feet away from the middle. And then, on my next full length rappel (which doesn't happen that often with a 70m), I might, gasp, have to adjust the ends, mid rappel. Oh no!
What is your plan for when your friends borrow your rope and dip in in battery acid? Or what about when your friends sneak into your gear closet and cut all of the bartacks on your gear and then glue the webbing back together with superglue? That would never happen you say? oh.
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olderic
Jun 1, 2012, 6:04 PM
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When you get more experience you will realize that things are seldom as black and white as you think they are at this stage.
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Rudmin
Jun 1, 2012, 6:12 PM
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olderic wrote: When you get more experience you will realize that things are seldom as black and white as you think they are at this stage.
Experience trolling the internet? Give me a single logical reason, why I shouldn't use a middle mark to line up my rope on a rappel.
You're only argument so far was that my rope will be somehow shortened without my knowledge. I pointed out that if gear can dangerously change without your knowledge, then all sorts of crazy shit could happen that will kill you.
So you came back by calling me inexperienced. I'm sure that's always a good trump card to play every time you make up an arbitrary statements about rock climbing.
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