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Possible ACR variation?
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snowfall


Jun 25, 2012, 10:01 AM
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Possible ACR variation?
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First off, I'm a climbing n00b, so take anything I say for what its worth Wink. I've been playing around (at home, not on the crag yet) with anchor systems, and came across Paul Raphaelson's ACR method, where a rap ring threaded through a cordalette is used to build the power point rather than a figure 8. It doesn't look to me like it's necessary to have the rap ring permanently installed on the cordalette. Couldn't you just keep them separate, and push a bight of the cord/runner through the ring when setting up the anchor as shown below?
Attachments: IMAG0076-small.jpg (105 KB)


rsd212


Jun 25, 2012, 10:49 AM
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Re: [snowfall] Possible ACR variation? [In reply to]
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Thought experiment: what happens when you take a pair of scissors and cut any one strand of this rig?


snowfall


Jun 25, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Same thing that happens with the original ACR, or the the MT web-o-lette, or the trango alpine equalizer: blammo, no more anchor. Raphaelson suggests backing it up by tying the rope directly into the best of the three pieces.


dynosore


Jun 25, 2012, 11:14 AM
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Re: [snowfall] Possible ACR variation? [In reply to]
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snowfall wrote:
Same thing that happens with the original ACR, or the the MT web-o-lette, or the trango alpine equalizer: blammo, no more anchor. Raphaelson suggests backing it up by tying the rope directly into the best of the three pieces.

Dynosore suggests using a different anchor configuration altogther.


wivanoff


Jun 25, 2012, 11:15 AM
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snowfall wrote:
Same thing that happens with the original ACR, or the the MT web-o-lette, or the trango alpine equalizer: blammo, no more anchor. Raphaelson suggests backing it up by tying the rope directly into the best of the three pieces.

Then, why not just use the rope to construct your anchor to begin with? Really, it's tried and true.

See Jim Titt's and RGold's comments about sliding systems at the top of page 6 in this thread:
http://www.mountainproject.com/...77191__6#a_107521702


JimTitt


Jun 25, 2012, 12:13 PM
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I shall help you here!
The reason for running them through the ring as in the ACR is that when you move the belay to the side the two strands of tape through the ring both go in the same direction and are free to move even if one is on top of the other. Your way this is not the case and one strand can lock the other one onto the ring. Try it and see.
The other problem is that with your set-up failure of the centre point could allow even more extension than with an ACR and you could also end up with the legendary American Death Triangle and we wouldnīt want that would we!
That said having the ring in an _ACR is pointless and can be replaced with a karabiner since the ACR performs no better than a sliding X with two karabiners (which it then becomes). Which has itīs own problems with poor equalisation and extension.


snowfall


Jun 25, 2012, 1:03 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Possible ACR variation? [In reply to]
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Thanks, Jim - that makes sense. Wivanoff's comment about just using the rope is starting to look like maybe the best option in many (most?) cases.


Partner rgold


Jun 25, 2012, 1:47 PM
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Re: [snowfall] Possible ACR variation? [In reply to]
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Jim, who is probably the world's expert on these things right now, has pretty much said it all.

My advice, especially for a newcomer to the game, is to forget about sliding equalization setups altogether and learn to quickly and efficiently set up fixed-arm anchors, which are going to be the best and safest things for almost all climbing applications.

Modern fashion is to use a cordelette for these, but there is much to be said for rope-only anchors. Learn these first, and then when you can do them well and quickly, consider the pros and cons of a cordelette for certain circumstances.


deane


Jun 25, 2012, 2:18 PM
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Re: [rgold] Possible ACR variation? [In reply to]
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If you are going to learn rope-only anchors then make sure to learn how to escape them as well.


wivanoff


Jun 25, 2012, 3:42 PM
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JimTitt wrote:
I shall help you here!
The reason for running them through the ring as in the ACR is that when you move the belay to the side the two strands of tape through the ring both go in the same direction and are free to move even if one is on top of the other. Your way this is not the case and one strand can lock the other one onto the ring. Try it and see.
Jim: I didn't see that at all until you mentioned it. Now it's so obvious.

snowfall wrote:
Thanks, Jim - that makes sense. Wivanoff's comment...
It's not me at all. I was only referencing what I had previously seen JimTitt and RGold write.

A lot of us started off building anchors with just the rope. Then we/I got side-tracked with all types of 'lettes and equalization and what not. And now a lot of us have gone back to the tried and true method of using just the rope. That's now what I do most of the time. Occasionally, I use one of the other methods IF the situation warrants.

deane wrote:
If you are going to learn rope-only anchors then make sure to learn how to escape them as well.
I agree that it's good to know how to do that, but I've never had to escape the belay in 40 years of climbing. OP: If you use one of the 'rope only' configurations similar to the picture posted by RGold and chose to add a masterpoint/powerpoint, escaping the belay is absolutely not an issue at all. While you're attached to the anchor, you're not part of the chain - unless you belay off your harness.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...er_anchor_34116.html


(This post was edited by wivanoff on Jun 25, 2012, 3:50 PM)


patto


Jun 25, 2012, 5:08 PM
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deane wrote:
If you are going to learn rope-only anchors then make sure to learn how to escape them as well.

I don't know how it is much different from escaping a cordalette anchor.

snowfall wrote:
Thanks, Jim - that makes sense. Wivanoff's comment about just using the rope is starting to look like maybe the best option in many (most?) cases.

Most of the aversion from using climbing rope comes from those who don't know how to do it well. It is simple, it is fast and it is flexible. Certainly in some situations cordalettes are an advantage, particularly if your not swinging leads. However in my experience this is only 20% of the time. The flexibility offered by a climbing rope ensures that it is the all round winner.

The basic cordalette has its place though as it is simpler to learn. So I often teach beginners this. The ACR, equalette and others are simply trying to solve a problem that does not exist.


bearbreeder


Jun 25, 2012, 10:22 PM
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Re: [patto] Possible ACR variation? [In reply to]
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utterly depends who you climb with and what you climb ... i often do all the leading on a multi, or lead a whole block of em ... i often link up full 60+ meter pitches as well ... the cord/webbing is also used to sling trees and boulders ... as well as to back up sketchy rap tat ... it even serves as a sling for the draws

every multi climber should know how to make a rope anchor ... but what people choose to use is totally up to them as long as it aint unsafe ...

just like munters, biner brakes, etc ...


JimTitt


Jun 26, 2012, 10:40 AM
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snowfall wrote:
Thanks, Jim - that makes sense. Wivanoff's comment about just using the rope is starting to look like maybe the best option in many (most?) cases.

Well, I learnt in the days when rope was all one had but nowadays you will usually see me using a system with the rope and some slings/draws or whatever to join the rest up. Basically whatever Iīve got handy and whatever works best on the day, the rope has the bonus that itīs relatively easy to adjust the length as required and Iīve already clipped it into the first piece I placed to protect me while I build the rest.
Bearbreeder has a valid point about long multi-pitch routes though normally we swing leads on these but to be able to build an anchor to allow quick changeover is certainly useful, whether you use a bunch of normal slings or something dedicated is up to you.


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