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Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade
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USnavy


Jun 27, 2012, 12:26 AM
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Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade
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I move to remove the A6 grade from the site. The grade does not even exist. A5 implies every piece on the pitch is a bodyweight only piece, and it cant get much more serious than that.

As quoted by Wikipedia, "C6 or A6 does not exist, since the aid climbing scale was developed as discrete scale that is not open ended. Also, since C5 implies the death of both climber and belayer, a rating of C6 could not cause an increase in severity."

Furthermore, there isn't a single pitch on any climb in Yosemite graded A6, and Yosemite is pretty much the mecca of wall climbing. Thus, the grade has no use on this site.


guangzhou


Jun 27, 2012, 2:05 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
I move to remove the A6 grade from the site. The grade does not even exist. A5 implies every piece on the pitch is a bodyweight only piece, and it cant get much more serious than that.

As quoted by Wikipedia, "C6 or A6 does not exist, since the aid climbing scale was developed as discrete scale that is not open ended. Also, since C5 implies the death of both climber and belayer, a rating of C6 could not cause an increase in severity."

Furthermore, there isn't a single pitch on any climb in Yosemite graded A6, and Yosemite is pretty much the mecca of wall climbing. Thus, the grade has no use on this site.

A5 Doesn't imply that the belays are body weight only. A5 is nothing is likely to catch a fall on the entire pitch. Jolly Rancher coms to mind.

A6 is a Theoretical Grade where even the belays are unlikely to hold more than body weight only.

While Yosemite is on an aid climbing Meca, they are places where aid is being pushed very far, including but not limited the Fisher Towers.

I think, but I could be wrong, but it was John Middendorf that wrote a good piece on this subject way back. Pretty sure he knows more about aid climbing than you or I.

http://www.climbing.com/...n_the_fisher_towers/

The way I understand the Theoretical A6 grade is that it's A4+ maybe A5 climbing with belays that won't hold. Theoretical because no one has fallen on one of these routes yet. If someone were to fall and the belay help, the route is down graded, if the belays blows the grade stays.


A6 belay station


USnavy


Jun 27, 2012, 11:37 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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There are A3 and A4 routes on El Cap with crap belays that probably wouldn't hold a FF2, but they dont get slapped with an A6 rating. Furthermore, some of the A5s on El Cap have crappy 1/4" rivet and stud bolts for belays. Well if the leader falls at the end of the pitch and zippers down 200 feet onto a quarter-incher, do you really think it is going to hold? Probably not. As far as the Fish Towers A6+ stuff goes, my impression is that no one believes them. I only asked a few people about this subject, but those who I asked were A4 and A5 wall climbers and they said that they do not recognize the A6+ rating they gave that route. I am inclined to side with them, I mean how can you go from A5 to A6+ without even have ever climbed or rated an A5+ or A6? That's ludicrous, that's like going from 5.14 to 5.16 with no experience climbing 5.15, you cant grade something that is so far above the already highest standard - no one will believe you. Even yet, if A6 existed, it would mean that everything is bodyweight and shit. So how could you possibly have A6+? Its not physically possible to make something more severe than all bodyweight. Thats like rating a climb XXX instead of just X. You cant have anything more serious than X because a fall on an X rated route means you will likely die.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jun 27, 2012, 11:45 AM)


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Jun 27, 2012, 2:21 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Take this thread and go to the Aid forum, where, you can argue semantics.

USN, get out and do some real HFS, DFU pitches. guangzhou has some good stuff in his post regarding A6 and its theoritical position in the aid ratings. Personally, I enjoy the CRS when it comes to aid; where it becomes less about the numbers and more about the climbing.


guangzhou


Jun 28, 2012, 9:01 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
There are A3 and A4 routes on El Cap with crap belays that probably wouldn't hold a FF2, but they dont get slapped with an A6 rating.

Name 3. I've only climbed half a dozen El-Cap routes. I can think of No A3 route that has bad belay stations. Unless you're not good at placing gear or have an inadequate rack.

In reply to:
Furthermore, some of the A5s on El Cap have crappy 1/4" rivet and stud bolts for belays. Well if the leader falls at the end of the pitch and zippers down 200 feet onto a quarter-incher, do you really think it is going to hold?

On those A5, if a climber were to fall, zipper the pitch and yank the partner off the wall and they both die, it would most likely confirm the grade isn't A5 but A6.

I also think you should look up what a factor 2 fall is.

In reply to:
Probably not. As far as the Fish Towers A6+ stuff goes, my impression is that no one believes them. I only asked a few people about this subject, but those who I asked were A4 and A5 wall climbers and they said that they do not recognize the A6+ rating they gave that route.

Good for them, a few climbers do indeed recognize the theoretical grade.

There you go speaking expert and experienced climbers who have no names again. If you spoke with someone, tell us who instead of beating around the bush.

The first route in the Fisher tower given the grade was questioned, not sure the second one has been yet.

Aid is definitely about controlling you fear and perception of fear. Hooking for 30 feet above a solid bolts feel very different from hooking 100 feet above the same bolt.

Each hook move getting you higher and further from the bolt will feel harder even if it's not. (I know this for sure)

In reply to:
I am inclined to side with them, I mean how can you go from A5 to A6+ without even have ever climbed or rated an A5+ or A6?

That's what people said when Wolfgang Gulich rated Action Direct. Turns out that rating has not only stood the test of time, but the route has been up grade since.

In reply to:
That's ludicrous, that's like going from 5.14 to 5.16 with no experience climbing 5.15, you cant grade something that is so far above the already highest standard - no one will believe you.

See my statement above. Gullich proposed XI-/XI, which IS 8c+/9a, and that before confirmed 8a existed.

In reply to:
Even yet, if A6 existed, it would mean that everything is bodyweight and shit. So how could you possibly have A6+?
Technical versus straight forward body weight only and shitty.

In reply to:
Its not physically possible to make something more severe than all bodyweight. Thats like rating a climb XXX instead of just X. You cant have anything more serious than X because a fall on an X rated route means you will likely die.

Actually, an X routes mean you're risky injury or life. Not just likely to die.

The only way to know for sure if a route is A5 or A6 is to test the Theoretical grade. So, have an Aid Climber lead the entire A5 or A6 pitch. When reaching the next belay fall on purpose. If anything holds, we can downgrade the route to A4. If the climbers fall the entire pitch and takes his belayer with him from the pitch below, the route is definitely A6. Not just the climber dies, but so does the belayer.

If only the climber dies, the belayer survives, he can confirm the pitch as A5 and lead it himself.

Not sure if you heard of John Middendorf , he has a good description of aid grades.

If you don't believe A6 is possible, grab a partner and go challenge the grade.

Personally, I never plan on establishing an A5 or A6 route so no worried about the theoretical grade.

I will most likely avoid putting up an A4 on purpose but can see how that would happen. I've done one A3+ might as well have been A$ I was so scared. A4 route hope to avoid, just not worth the risk for me. Didn't find much pleasure in it.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jun 28, 2012, 9:26 PM)


avalon420


Jun 29, 2012, 6:17 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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A6 is totally plausible. I seriously doubt you've ever even aided (other than pulling on a quick draw) And did you even notice the irony of this postin regard to your own Sig. Go back to clipping bolts, duchebag c:


stagg54


Jun 29, 2012, 9:44 AM
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Re: [avalon420] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs

Enough said.


Gmburns2000


Jun 29, 2012, 10:46 AM
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Re: [stagg54] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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heh


6pacfershur


Jun 29, 2012, 7:09 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
On those A5, if a climber were to fall, zipper the pitch and yank the partner off the wall and they both die, it would most likely confirm the grade isn't A5 but A6.

let me see if i have this straight....if the leader falls, the belay fails, and both climbers die, we can upgrade the route?


guangzhou


Jun 29, 2012, 9:45 PM
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Re: [6pacfershur] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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6pacfershur wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
On those A5, if a climber were to fall, zipper the pitch and yank the partner off the wall and they both die, it would most likely confirm the grade isn't A5 but A6.

let me see if i have this straight....if the leader falls, the belay fails, and both climbers die, we can upgrade the route?

A downgraded if any of the pieces held during the fall.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jun 29, 2012, 9:46 PM)


jh_angel


Jun 30, 2012, 1:27 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
See my statement above. Gullich proposed XI-/XI, which IS 8c+/9a, and that before confirmed 8a existed.

Sorry to thread jack, but...

Where did you get that last bit from? Gullich snagged the FA in 1991. In the late 80's many routes graded 8a and up at Smith alone saw repeats and had their grades confirmed in the process. To Bolt Or Not To Be (8b+) saw about 3 to 5 ascents by this time. So what do you consider an appropriate number of ascents to "confirm" a grade if that doesn't count in your book?


JimTitt


Jun 30, 2012, 10:57 PM
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Re: [jh_angel] Remove A6 - It's not eveam in a real grade [In reply to]
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jh_angel wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
See my statement above. Gullich proposed XI-/XI, which IS 8c+/9a, and that before confirmed 8a existed.

Sorry to thread jack, but...

Where did you get that last bit from? Gullich snagged the FA in 1991. In the late 80's many routes graded 8a and up at Smith alone saw repeats and had their grades confirmed in the process. To Bolt Or Not To Be (8b+) saw about 3 to 5 ascents by this time. So what do you consider an appropriate number of ascents to "confirm" a grade if that doesn't count in your book?

The Face (8a/8a+) was done in83 and confirmed in 84 as well as plenty of 8as around that time. The hardest route before Action Direkt was probably Hubble done the year before at 8c+.


sungam


Jul 1, 2012, 6:32 AM
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Re: [avalon420] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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avalon420 wrote:
A6 is totally plausible. I seriously doubt you've ever even aided (other than pulling on a quick draw) And did you even notice the irony of this postin regard to your own Sig. Go back to clipping bolts, duchebag c:
You trollin right?


camhead


Jul 1, 2012, 8:54 AM
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Re: [sungam] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boQHYBhlOcs


Gmburns2000


Jul 1, 2012, 9:32 AM
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Re: [camhead] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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gu'd much?


USnavy


Jul 1, 2012, 7:14 PM
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Mark_Hudon


Jul 3, 2012, 5:28 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!


sungam


Jul 4, 2012, 8:29 AM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
If you're looking for somewhere nice, I hear the banzed darkle and now /r/MLPlounge is a lovely place.


marc801


Jul 4, 2012, 10:39 AM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
What'd he say? He was a lame wimp and deleted his post.


johnwesely


Jul 4, 2012, 11:02 AM
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marc801 wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
What'd he say? He was a lame wimp and deleted his post.

In the interest of posterity. He was spraying about walls he had done. I don't remember if he was being rude or not.


Mark_Hudon


Jul 4, 2012, 12:32 PM
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I was referring to Avalon420's post.


marc801


Jul 4, 2012, 1:18 PM
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Re: [Mark_Hudon] Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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Mark_Hudon wrote:
I was referring to Avalon420's post.
Ah. But your reply was to USgumbyNavy. We're an easily confused bunch - we're climbers.
BTW, I still have the Max Jones manufactured 1/2 size friend you sold me in the Valley in the early 80's. How's that for an ancient memory? No, it's no longer on my rack, but it did catch a 20 footer.


Gmburns2000


Jul 4, 2012, 1:36 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
marc801 wrote:
Mark_Hudon wrote:
Wow! and people say SuperTopo is rude!
What'd he say? He was a lame wimp and deleted his post.

In the interest of posterity. He was spraying about walls he had done. I don't remember if he was being rude or not.

despite getting soaked from spray, I don't understand why it was deleted. Seemed like a non-roc.com climbing post to me.


Mark_Hudon


Jul 4, 2012, 2:05 PM
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marc801 wrote:

BTW, I still have the Max Jones manufactured 1/2 size friend you sold me in the Valley in the early 80's. How's that for an ancient memory? No, it's no longer on my rack, but it did catch a 20 footer.

Ha! That's funny!, Max and I laugh at each other now at how much of our stores we each remember differently!


guangzhou


Jul 4, 2012, 7:34 PM
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Re: Remove A6 - It's not even a real grade [In reply to]
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The post that was deleted was related to USNaive's "9 El-cap routes" if I remember correctly. He was defending himself from Avalon.

Wow, blast from the past. I have some friends bough in Camp 4 during the mid 80s. (Cams, not actual friends) Sure miss the Valley, maybe my wife and I need to do a three month vacation there soon. Either Spring of Fall.

If all goes well, my wife will be doing starting her first big wall next week. I say starting because I have no idea how long it will take to actually climbing the line, but I'm guessing it will require a couple of trips.


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Jul 4, 2012, 7:35 PM)

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