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stoneguy
Jun 28, 2012, 3:57 PM
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Just in case you guys are bored.
So obviously tie a knot in the end of the rope, but what would you use as a backup, or fly without.? I am assuming use of an ATC but other stuff works.
I've seen a Prussik used at hip level attached to the tail. Release and it tightens the ATC. Any thoughts.?
Thanks.
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moose_droppings
Jun 28, 2012, 4:09 PM
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stoneguy wrote: Just in case you guys are bored. So obviously tie a knot in the end of the rope, but what would you use as a backup, or fly without.? I am assuming use of an ATC but other stuff works. I've seen a Prussik used at hip level attached to the tail. Release and it tightens the ATC. Any thoughts.? Thanks.
Your wits are going to be the best thing to use.
Like you said, an autoblock below your rap device is what I'll use a lot of the time.
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drector
Jun 28, 2012, 4:55 PM
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Letting go of the rope belaying or lowering and letting go rapping are about the same so I use the same thing to back up my belay as I do to back up my rappel.
Dave
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stoneguy
Jun 28, 2012, 5:44 PM
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and that would be...?
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edge
Jun 28, 2012, 5:49 PM
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stoneguy wrote: and that would be...?
I imagine he means "nothing".
I have never backed up a rap in 35 years of climbing.
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stoneguy
Jun 28, 2012, 6:08 PM
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Since this is the internet, I should re-phrase that , so you don't think I'm being a dick.
I'll assume that means nothing, as suggested, and I DID appreciate the reply.
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dagibbs
Jun 28, 2012, 7:41 PM
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drector wrote: Letting go of the rope belaying or lowering and letting go rapping are about the same so I use the same thing to back up my belay as I do to back up my rappel. Dave
When I'm belaying I encounter far fewer rope snarls than when I'm rappelling.
Also, when I'm rappelling to clean a route, and by this I mean clear loose rock, lichen, moss, dirt, etc I find that having both hands free can be very helpful, so a backed up rappel is useful for that, too.
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ninepointeight
Jun 29, 2012, 2:32 PM
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drector wrote: Letting go of the rope belaying or lowering and letting go rapping are about the same so I use the same thing to back up my belay as I do to back up my rappel. Dave
So if I get hit by a rock while belaying, my leader will immediately get yanked off the face and come hurtling toward the earth?
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redlude97
Jun 29, 2012, 2:35 PM
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A lot of people I know use a grigri when cleaning, have you considered that? Seems easier in general
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bearbreeder
Jun 29, 2012, 2:54 PM
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rock fall can be a serious issue when rapelling ... especially with other rap parties above you ....
in such cases a backup may be prudent ...
dont let those "i never need a backup or knots" people tell you what to do on the intrawebs ... its YOUR life and yr partners, not some random RC sprayer ... use yr own head and judgement ...
i personally use an assisted locking SMART ... or a kleimheist underneath the device if using an atc
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billl7
Jun 29, 2012, 5:34 PM
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"So obviously tie a knot in the end of the rope, but what would you use as a backup, or fly without.?"
I hardly ever tie knots in the ends.
Nowadays, more often than not, I use a prusik above the rap device. I know how to get it unlocked if needed (never have). Some will say "old school."
I've seen a friction knot below the rap device get pushed down the rope by the rap device like it wasn't even there. I know the rap device can be extended to avoid this - just don't see a compelling reason to take that route rather than a prusik above.
Bill L
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olderic
Jun 29, 2012, 7:03 PM
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edge wrote: stoneguy wrote: and that would be...? I imagine he means "nothing". I have never backed up a rap in 35 years of climbing.
I'll raise you 5. Haven't used any friction knot backup in 40 years (even when Zebby taught me how to simul rao 30 pitches up at El Potrero), I have knotted the ends a couple of times though.
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Traches
Jun 29, 2012, 7:28 PM
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Mostly I rap to clean single pitch sport routes. I don't tie knots-- no risk of rapping off the end and I've seen a few people forget to untie them before trying to pull their rope...
I do use an autoblock below the device, mostly so I can go hands free for cleaning.
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edge
Jun 29, 2012, 7:40 PM
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Traches wrote: I do use an autoblock below the device, mostly so I can go hands free for cleaning.
I just wrap the rope three times around my leg to clean. Two weekends ago I hung like this for an hour and a half to clean two side by side lines.
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Traches
Jun 29, 2012, 8:21 PM
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edge wrote: I just wrap the rope three times around my leg to clean. Two weekends ago I hung like this for an hour and a half to clean two side by side lines.
I don't doubt that it's just as safe, and you get a smoother rap without a backup too. It's my preference to keep things as mistake-proof as possible; too many circumstances where I could lose control of the rap and I've heard terrible things about the fireman's belay for an actual uncontrolled descent.
I'm not saying I know better than anyone, but for me the added safety and convenience of hands-free whenever I want are worth the inconvenience of tying a backup.
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moose_droppings
Jun 30, 2012, 5:24 PM
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Jeezes Mike, now your gonna start an argument about girth hitching dyneema slings.
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Guran
Jul 2, 2012, 4:00 AM
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drector wrote: Letting go of the rope belaying or lowering and letting go rapping are about the same so I use the same thing to back up my belay as I do to back up my rappel. Dave
Well it's your life, but I have at least one climbing buddy who might not have been here today if he had been too proud to use a backup.
A rappelling climber should hold of course on to the rope even when his hand is struck by a big chunk of ice. He did not. Prussik caught him long before his brain realized what just happened.
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dagibbs
Jul 3, 2012, 10:38 AM
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redlude97 wrote: A lot of people I know use a grigri when cleaning, have you considered that? Seems easier in general
Hm... I'd need two grigris then, one for each side. We're usually on a doubled (old) climbing rope, not a single-strand pre-set (probably) static rope.
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dagibbs
Jul 3, 2012, 10:40 AM
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billl7 wrote: Nowadays, more often than not, I use a prusik above the rap device. I know how to get it unlocked if needed (never have). Some will say "old school." I've seen a friction knot below the rap device get pushed down the rope by the rap device like it wasn't even there. I know the rap device can be extended to avoid this - just don't see a compelling reason to take that route rather than a prusik above. Bill L
I like the friction know below the device, because then the friction knot gets the mechanical advantage of the belay device, so it doesn't have to grab the rope as hard.
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vinnie83
Jul 3, 2012, 12:01 PM
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billl7 wrote: I've seen a friction knot below the rap device get pushed down the rope by the rap device like it wasn't even there. Bill L
Clearly a case of operator error. Extending the rap device is an option, but not required for a friction knot to funciton when used below the device.
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billl7
Jul 3, 2012, 1:00 PM
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vinnie83 wrote: billl7 wrote: I've seen a friction knot below the rap device get pushed down the rope by the rap device like it wasn't even there. Clearly a case of operator error. Extending the rap device is an option, but not required for a friction knot to funciton when used below the device.
Maybe I'm missing a configuration that will always work without extending the rap device. If so, am very interested to hear it as for about a year I favored having the friction hitch/knot below.
Otherwise, in order for extension to be "not required", I believe one of these has to be true ... I'm assuming the friction hitch/knot is attached to the harness leg loop:
a) one never actually goes hands free such as when unconcious, or
b) one is certain to never raise one's leg high enough for the friction knot/hitch to come up against the rap device (i.e., ATC) even when unconcious, or
c) one discovers a cord length that is short enough to have no way of reaching the unextended rap device but still workable under all rope dimensions whether single or double strand.
Of course one can choose to rely on 'b'. I just prefer to minimize what I have to keep track of even while unconcious. 
Bill L
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bearbreeder
Jul 3, 2012, 1:07 PM
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i just shorten the prussic with an overhand prior to rapping if i need to adjust it ... the basic check is to make sure it wont get sucked into the rap device when setting it up ... once you have a length that works, youll keep it that way
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drector
Jul 3, 2012, 1:21 PM
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ninepointeight wrote: drector wrote: Letting go of the rope belaying or lowering and letting go rapping are about the same so I use the same thing to back up my belay as I do to back up my rappel. Dave So if I get hit by a rock while belaying, my leader will immediately get yanked off the face and come hurtling toward the earth?
If you are belaying and you get hit by a rock and you have tension on the rope, your falling down unconscious might just yank your climber off the wall. Once unconscious, the guy is free solo which is not so good anyhow. Why not back up the belay for that situation so that the climber is not suddenly screwed. How will he climb up if you fall and are laying on the pile of rope?
But ok, so you lead climb multi-pitch routes where no one ever falls and the climber still has slack if you get hit by a rock. What about top roping where lowering happens all of the time and the climber is as likely to knock off a rock onto your head as you are to have the empty wall above you drop a rock on your head.
My point is that the hazards of belaying are sometimes less and sometimes more serious than the hazards of rappelling but absolutely no one backs up their belay. Why is that? Why does no one care about that situation even though it is not as safe as walking on the sidewalk? Why is rappelling so important in this way?
Cavers, according to some old stuff I read, never back up their rappel. Maybe that has changed but it was interesting to me since the arguments were not even based on comparisons with things like with belaying.
There are good arguments for using a backup when rappelling. The rock hitting your head is not a good one since that can happen belaying a top rope climbe or just happen when you are the climber and the rock kills you. Rock fall is a hazard all by itself regardless of what you are doing. What might be a good argument is that your hand is moving around near the rock face and you are much more likely to have your hand hit the rock and get pulled or knocked off the rope. At least that is a situation specific to rappelling that is an increase in the danger where a backup knot might help.
How often has a rappeller needed a backup knot ever? A few times is not enough to show a statistical need for it. There are other things that happen more often that people ignore completely. Rare problems things don't require protection, common problems require protection.
So no, I have never had a backup for my brake hand while rappelling and don't see a need for it except in special situations.
Dave
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redlude97
Jul 3, 2012, 1:29 PM
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dagibbs wrote: redlude97 wrote: A lot of people I know use a grigri when cleaning, have you considered that? Seems easier in general Hm... I'd need two grigris then, one for each side. We're usually on a doubled (old) climbing rope, not a single-strand pre-set (probably) static rope.
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