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acorneau
Jul 13, 2012, 2:41 AM
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So let's discuss these systems if there is a large 10' ledge where the anchoring options are 10' back from the edge and the belayer wants to be seated at the edge. (A common scenario at one of my regular spots: Upper Mt. Scott, Wichitas, OK.)
What I usually do is pull up enough slack so I can clove to the first piece and have enough slack to sit on the edge. Then I use the BOAB to go to pieces 2 and 3, and will clove that back to myself when seated at the edge. I'll then use that cloved biner as the belay biner for my belay device.
This puts the weight mostly on the BOAB/#2/#3 pieces with piece #1 (cloved) sharing the load or nearly loaded. It takes two full-length runs of the rope between the edge and the pro 10 feet back, plus the rope for the knots.
The Bazillion anchor would take 4 full 10' runs between the butterfly/master point and the pro and would be a PITA to get all three strands at the right length without a lot of futzing around.
Cracklover's Fig-8+X system would only take two, the one "loaded" strand going to the belayer and one that isn't loaded at all.
Thoughts on this type of scenario?
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 13, 2012, 2:44 AM)
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cracklover
Jul 13, 2012, 2:45 PM
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acorneau wrote: So let's discuss these systems if there is a large 10' ledge where the anchoring options are 10' back from the edge and the belayer wants to be seated at the edge. (A common scenario at one of my regular spots: Upper Mt. Scott, Wichitas, OK.) Cracklover's Fig-8+X system would only take two, the one "loaded" strand going to the belayer and one that isn't loaded at all. Thoughts on this type of scenario?
Mine takes only one run back from the edge to the gear. If I understand it correctly, yours takes also takes one. Only in yours both strands (both going from your harness and coming to it) are loaded. Is this correct?
Fig-8-on-a-bight-plus-x-sling - long version:
Acorneau long anchor:
Certainly one strike against yours as you describe it, is that you've lost your power-point, if you care about such things.
If you wanted a powerpoint you could incorporate the power-point from the bazillion anchor and then add a redirect/second power-point on the tie-in rope. It would look something like this:
Incorporated in the anchor are a power-point on a biner, plus a second power-point/redirect near your harness where you can belay.
GO
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acorneau
Jul 13, 2012, 3:36 PM
Post #54 of 127
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cracklover wrote: Mine takes only one run back from the edge to the gear. If I understand it correctly, yours takes also takes one. Only in yours both strands (both going from your harness and coming to it) are loaded. Is this correct?
Sort of...
If you've led the climb, walk back to build your anchor and can make it back to the edge then the rope goes between the edge and the anchors twice: one end going to you (the leader) and one going back down to the belayer.
In reply to: Certainly one strike against yours as you describe it, is that you've lost your power-point, if you care about such things.
Yeah, it's not that hard to create a new one, as you show.
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cracklover
Jul 13, 2012, 3:54 PM
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acorneau wrote: In reply to: Certainly one strike against yours as you describe it, is that you've lost your power-point, if you care about such things. Yeah, it's not that hard to create a new one, as you show.
True, but now you're up to three knots and four clove hitches. One of the nice things about your system originally was its simplicity.
GO
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rgold
Jul 13, 2012, 5:36 PM
Post #56 of 127
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The real answer to the question about extended anchors is that rope-only anchors will certainly work but are not the best way to rig belays when the belayer is going to be a long way from the anchor. For those situations, a cordelette or properly arranged slings is better.
These arguments have a way of making everyone dogmatic as the minute details of each system are picked apart. But the real value of such discussions is to expand people's horizons about what they might do, since an increasing number of climbers nowadays only know how to rig anchors with a cordelette. This shouldn't be a "contest" to see whose method is "best," although after a while it starts to seem that way.
Rope-only anchors aren't ideal for every situation any more than cordelettes are, and part of the point is that cordelettes have been way oversold. But rigging separate from the rope is sometimes a better approach---it's all about having options and choosing the most suitable one.
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cracklover
Jul 13, 2012, 6:50 PM
Post #57 of 127
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rgold wrote: The real answer to the question about extended anchors is that rope-only anchors will certainly work but are not the best way to rig belays when the belayer is going to be a long way from the anchor. For those situations, a cordelette or properly arranged slings is better.
Why so? It seems to me that most of these configurations would work fine, just at the end of a long tie-in rope.
In reply to: These arguments have a way of making everyone dogmatic as the minute details of each system are picked apart. But the real value of such discussions is to expand people's horizons about what they might do, since an increasing number of climbers nowadays only know how to rig anchors with a cordelette. This shouldn't be a "contest" to see whose method is "best," although after a while it starts to seem that way. Rope-only anchors aren't ideal for every situation any more than cordelettes are, and part of the point is that cordelettes have been way oversold. But rigging separate from the rope is sometimes a better approach---it's all about having options and choosing the most suitable one.
To be honest, I'm not feeling all that biased, and I plan to adopt one of these methods myself when I want to use just rope. I apologize if the nit-picky nature of my posts is both hard to slog through and reads as pedantic, but it's helpful for me to argue through the minutiae in order to see the bigger picture. And the value of doing so on a public forum is that it may be helpful for others too.
I guess if it's too much, feel free to disengage, but I do always value your thoughts and considerations.
GO
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rgold
Jul 13, 2012, 7:44 PM
Post #58 of 127
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The rope-only configurations work, as I said in my post, they just aren't the best way any more. If you have your anchor rigged with, say, a cordelette, then you just clip in to the power point with your rope, walk out to the edge, clove the rope back to your harness, and you're done. I think the rigging and adjusting is far easier this way. Of course, I'm assuming an on-harness anchor belay for this.
Plus, when the second comes up, you will almost certainly want to return to the anchor for belaying the next lead. You reel your tie-in rope in as you walk back and clove the power point. With the rope-only method, you either have to retie the whole thing or else clove off a big loop of slack that would be much better left for the leader to run out.
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acorneau
Jul 13, 2012, 8:38 PM
Post #59 of 127
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Very true, very true.
As always, appropriateness is key.
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acorneau
Jul 13, 2012, 9:05 PM
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Cracklover: You posted the picture above as one of your go-to systems. I was thinking about this and have come up with a system that is very similar but does away with the extra sling/biner...
#1, #2, and #3 are clove hitches.
#4 is a Alpine butterfly, directional 8, or in your case a standard fig-8 on a bight which creates a large loop for #2 and #3 anchor points.
#5 is your same master point (butterfly).
This removes the need for the extra sling biner, each piece would (theoretically) get 33% of the load, and each piece can be adjusted easily with the clove hitches.
Have you tried this one before?
(This post was edited by acorneau on Jul 13, 2012, 9:09 PM)
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cervicornis
Jul 15, 2012, 7:53 AM
Post #61 of 127
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Those of you who rarely use a cordelette for anchor-rigging, do you still carry one on most or all climbs? If you’re heading up an old favorite and you’re positive you won’t need the cordelette for an anchor, do you still carry it for emergency use? I realize that isn’t really an anchor question, I’m just curious.
How concerned should I be about the two cloves on the powerpoint as pictured in the notapplicable anchor? I fooled around with all of these methods today and I found that using two biners to alleviate that concern was somewhat clumsy. Otherwise, I really like this anchor method (I almost always belay directly off the powerpoint using an ATC Guide).
My partner rarely leads, which presents the problem of having to swap rope ends. I would really like to ditch the cordelette method and use the rope anchor, but I am leery about swapping ends on every pitch. Are there any clever tips to make this fast and safe? What do you all do in this situation? Use a pair of lockers instead of a normal tie-in to make the swaps relatively quick? Back yourself up with slings or the rope and just get it done as quickly and safely as possible?
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patto
Jul 15, 2012, 8:05 AM
Post #62 of 127
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I find one of the key advantages of rope anchors is their ability to deal with anchors which are positioned away from the belayer! The area which I climb regularly normally has ledge belays and I'm certainly used to setting up such anchors.
It's quick, easy and involves no extra gear. I used to use a cordalette but I stopped because it offered absolutely no advantage. (Unless you climb a 60m pitch)
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bearbreeder
Jul 15, 2012, 4:09 PM
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If yr block leading, cord or sling anchors are faster IMO ... U just set it up with a master locker and everyone clips their cloves into that
U really dont want to untie and retie every pitch ...
I almost always carry a cord/webbing even when anchoring with the rope ... It acts as a gear sling, emergency prussic, bail material, etc ...
Its cheap and means you wont have to sacrifice those $$$ dyneema slings or chop the rope 
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JimTitt
Jul 15, 2012, 4:50 PM
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Never carried a cordalette. Build the anchor with slings/rope/whatever and then the second just clips into the pieces again same as I did. While he´s doing that I´ll be re-racking.
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LostinMaine
Jul 15, 2012, 11:47 PM
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First - thanks all for the thoughtful replies. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for. I've been trying to stay out of it a bit to see what others have been thinking.
I went out yesterday with a relatively new climber and had the opportunity to use 6 different anchors. I tried three with rope (essentially the bazillion in two closely spaced horizontal crack with four pieces, my standard bowline on a bight with a clove hitch for a 3-piece anchor, and GO's "equalized" sling setup). I compared these to a cordalette, a modified equalette, and one anchor was two bolts, so that doesn't count.
Luckily, each anchor was built from a decent stance with very acceptable pro. The fastest for me was GO's setup, by quite a bit. The bazillion took me a lot longer than I thought it would, but to be fair it was also the one I was least familiar with beforehand. I suspect with a few more attempts it would go much faster (primarily order of clove hitches). I still find the bowline on a bight provides me a lot of flexibility and does a fairly good job equalizing. Having said that, I tie it a LOT. It probably has the steepest learning curve of all anchors attempted since getting the two ears the correct lengths can be a PITA without a lot of practice.
Since I was with a new climber, we weren't able to swing leads. All of the 'ettes were far faster to get on the second pitch, but that was entirely expected. They were also the most "comfortable" anchors for him to deal with (easy to clip in when he got the the anchor).
In general, I found a somewhat reformed camaraderie with the cordalette. I may start carrying one again when not swinging leads. I didn't care much for the equalette, but I also didn't have it pre-tied. The rope-only anchoring techniques seem to be best suited for swinging leads or the top pitch anchors.
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rgold
Jul 16, 2012, 1:44 AM
Post #66 of 127
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cervicornis wrote: Those of you who rarely use a cordelette for anchor-rigging, do you still carry one on most or all climbs? If you’re heading up an old favorite and you’re positive you won’t need the cordelette for an anchor, do you still carry it for emergency use? I realize that isn’t really an anchor question, I’m just curious.
The only time I carry a cordelette is for big-wall climbing or on free climbs if I expect to do all the leading, and even then only if the climb has enough pitches to make time for belay changeovers important, since I can sequentially unrig a "bazillion" anchor while building a second one (in the opposite order) very quickly. (If a climb has bolted anchors, I don't see any need for a cordelette under any circumstances.) I virtually always climb with half ropes, which makes the anchoring process a little quicker and more flexible than what we're describing here.
On long climbs that might require slings for retreating, I'll usually carry some light webbing in the pack for rigging retreat anchors. I also typically climb with a few nylon full-length runners that can be sacrificed if need be.
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notapplicable
Jul 16, 2012, 4:48 PM
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cervicornis wrote: Those of you who rarely use a cordelette for anchor-rigging, do you still carry one on most or all climbs? If you’re heading up an old favorite and you’re positive you won’t need the cordelette for an anchor, do you still carry it for emergency use? I realize that isn’t really an anchor question, I’m just curious.
My cordelette hangs in the closet alongside my hexes and figure-8 rap device and other random stuff I bought early on but soon realized I had little use for.
When I'm climbing with someone who doesn't lead, I either swap ends or use some combination of slings and rope that I can easily duplicate with their end of the rope.
In reply to: How concerned should I be about the two cloves on the powerpoint as pictured in the notapplicable anchor?
One could make an argument for triaxial loading but I honestly don't think it's a concern, even in a "worst case scenario". I have zero actual data or pull tests to back that up though, so you might consider using the two biners or some other method of anchor construction if the angle gets too wide between your outside pieces.
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iknowfear
Jul 16, 2012, 6:21 PM
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notapplicable wrote: cervicornis wrote: Those of you who rarely use a cordelette for anchor-rigging, do you still carry one on most or all climbs? If you’re heading up an old favorite and you’re positive you won’t need the cordelette for an anchor, do you still carry it for emergency use? I realize that isn’t really an anchor question, I’m just curious. My cordelette hangs in the closet alongside my hexes and figure-8 rap device and other random stuff I bought early on but soon realized I had little use for. When I'm climbing with someone who doesn't lead, I either swap ends or use some combination of slings and rope that I can easily duplicate with their end of the rope. In reply to: How concerned should I be about the two cloves on the powerpoint as pictured in the notapplicable anchor? One could make an argument for triaxial loading but I honestly don't think it's a concern, even in a "worst case scenario". I have zero actual data or pull tests to back that up though, so you might consider using the two biners or some other method of anchor construction if the angle gets too wide between your outside pieces.
unless I'm only single pitch sport climbing, I almost always bring a cordelette. Eg. for self/buddy-resuce and to improve rappel anchors (cut the old stuff off and leave something new)
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herites
Jul 16, 2012, 10:05 PM
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Could you post up some methods to build an anchro from double ropes?
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 20, 2012, 4:59 PM
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cracklover wrote: moose_droppings wrote: As I mentioned earlier, using the rope for anchoring isn't the best way if your leading in blocks. You can disconnect from the system and swap ends, but I try to never do that if possible. You just put your finger on what, IMO, makes the Figure-8 on a bight plus sliding-x the most versatile method. In truth, it is not really in the same category as the other anchors here, because it's a hybrid anchor. It's partly built with the rope, and partly it's external. This comes in handy because I actually often have to "escape the belay" for completely mundane reasons - after building the anchor with my tie-in rope, I need to lead the next pitch. In such cases, it's very easy to switch out: the second just needs to tie the fig-8 on a bight and clove to the sliding-x. One knot and one clove hitch and we're good to go. Certainly not as easy as an anchor built completely external to the rope, but as I said, it's a hybrid. This comes up for me fairly often. A few cases: - The other member of your party arrives at the belay, looks up, gets snail-eye, and says "you mind leading the next pitch?" - You wind up either running some pitches together, or stopping at a different place than what you anticipated from the ground, and one of your party definitely wants to take a specific pitch or pitches. - One of your party tries a pitch and then comes back to the belay for one reason or another to switch out.
For these or other reasons, it can be nice not to have to reconstruct the whole anchor (or untie from the ends) to switch who's leading. GO
This happens to me quite a bit, which is why I still like the cordellete. I construct the anchor with the rope sometimes, but a majority of the time I use a cordellete. At a place like the Gunks, I also find the cordellete useful for belays at the top, which is usually a tree. Just tie it around and there's your anchor.
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 20, 2012, 5:13 PM
Post #71 of 127
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cervicornis wrote: Those of you who rarely use a cordelette for anchor-rigging, do you still carry one on most or all climbs? If you’re heading up an old favorite and you’re positive you won’t need the cordelette for an anchor, do you still carry it for emergency use? I realize that isn’t really an anchor question, I’m just curious.
I think the point of this thread is to open your mind (and toolbox) to other possibilities. You never NEED a cordellette. I happen to prefer them, but If I didn't have one, I wouldn't panic, I would just set up the belay a different way.
In reply to: How concerned should I be about the two cloves on the powerpoint as pictured in the notapplicable anchor? I fooled around with all of these methods today and I found that using two biners to alleviate that concern was somewhat clumsy. Otherwise, I really like this anchor method (I almost always belay directly off the powerpoint using an ATC Guide).
In reply to: My partner rarely leads, which presents the problem of having to swap rope ends. I would really like to ditch the cordelette method and use the rope anchor, but I am leery about swapping ends on every pitch. Are there any clever tips to make this fast and safe? What do you all do in this situation? Use a pair of lockers instead of a normal tie-in to make the swaps relatively quick? Back yourself up with slings or the rope and just get it done as quickly and safely as possible?
Once again, the purpose of this thread is not to make you ditch what you are doing and use someone else's method. I would find a cordellete useful if you are doing all the leading. But, you should not be dependent on the cordellete. You SHOULD know other methods. How many times have you been on a climb and realized that you forgot something in your pack, or dropped something, or assumed your partner grabbed it. Stuff happens. Open you mind and your toolbox. Just don't drink the Kool-Aid and buy into the idea that so and so's method is better than yours.
Josh
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cracklover
Jul 20, 2012, 7:49 PM
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cervicornis wrote: Those of you who rarely use a cordelette for anchor-rigging, do you still carry one on most or all climbs?
I'd say I carry a cordelette about 75% of the time on a multipitch climb, and only use it at the anchor about 10% of the time. Ten years ago, I would have said I carry it nearly 100% of the time, and used it more than 50% of the time. The main reason why I use it so much less is that so many belays have become bolted. At a belay with two good bolts, a cordelette is just so much useless weight.
I often do most of the leading, which is partly why I still carry it. Also, I tend to be conservative - I'd rather have too much than too little, which is why I've not stopped carrying the cordelette more quickly. But I would anticipate that within the next ten years, I very well might.
In reply to: If you’re heading up an old favorite and you’re positive you won’t need the cordelette for an anchor, do you still carry it for emergency use?
No.
In reply to: My partner rarely leads, which presents the problem of having to swap rope ends. I would really like to ditch the cordelette method and use the rope anchor, but I am leery about swapping ends on every pitch. Are there any clever tips to make this fast and safe?
Perhaps, but if I were in your place, I'd either continue to just use a cordelette, or use a hybrid method like mine.
Just to use my method as an example, when the second comes up, she can simply clip a locker in to the crossed sling, clip into that, and go off belay. Then she can clip into the third piece using any number of methods before you set off for the next pitch.
GO
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majid_sabet
Jul 21, 2012, 5:51 AM
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rgold
Jul 21, 2012, 2:09 PM
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Hello? The subject is building anchors with the rope.
And for climbing anchors, not rescue loads. A climber that builds a five-point anchor like that is going to run out of pieces on the next lead.
Granting its total irrelevance to the subject at hand, the example does illustrate one of the drawbacks of the cordelette method, namely the difficulty of getting the legs properly adjusted when tying a big central knot. In spite of the obvious care with which that knot was formed and dressed, the leftmost leg came out too long and the rigger kludged a fix by wrapping it around the biner twice, a technique that provides only discrete jumps in arm length rather than the continuous adjustments afforded by clove hitching.
Perhaps getting everything properly snug would have been easier if the rightmost two arms had just been tied as a single arm clipped to both pieces, which are right next to each other and have no need for separate attachments.
Finally, you think the ends on the cordelette joining knot could be shortened a bit? Why have those gigantic inch-long stubs flapping about uselessly?
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