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yosemitebowline


Jul 15, 2012, 5:18 AM
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The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems
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Apparently, finishing up the bowline with the Yosemite finish actually unties the bowline.

This video shows how this can happen - this seems to me a bit dangerous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI


(This post was edited by yosemitebowline on Jul 15, 2012, 5:59 AM)


dindolino32


Jul 15, 2012, 9:44 PM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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I thought the Yosemite finish was only with the double figure 8 knot anyway.


majid_sabet


Jul 15, 2012, 10:13 PM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline in their rigging to rescue climbers










I know, we all gonna die


stefanfischer


Jul 16, 2012, 1:01 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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I think the original poster was referring to the Bowline with the Yosemite finish, not to a simple Bowline. Both are not safe for climbing!
The picture you've posted shows the simple bowline, and a bunch of other knots - but no Yosemite finish as far as I can see.


ninepointeight


Jul 16, 2012, 4:31 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline

Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up.


wivanoff


Jul 16, 2012, 6:19 AM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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You could say the same thing about a loose improperly dressed clove hitch or any other improperly dressed knot.

Most people I know (myself included) tie a double loop bowline with a Yosemite finish to a 1/2 double fisherman's. And we tend to dress the knot properly instead of loosely as shown in that alarmist video.

Move along, folks. There's nothing to see here.


trenchdigger


Jul 16, 2012, 8:33 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline in their rigging to rescue climbers
[img]http://s10.postimage.org/rh5mgt3nd/PICT0152.jpg[/img]
I know, we all gonna die

And they don't even use a yosemite finish with them... Definitely gunna die!!!1


JimTitt


Jul 16, 2012, 9:13 AM
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Re: [trenchdigger] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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trenchdigger wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline in their rigging to rescue climbers
[img]http://s10.postimage.org/rh5mgt3nd/PICT0152.jpg[/img]
I know, we all gonna die

And they don't even use a yosemite finish with them... Definitely gunna die!!!1

No stoppers on those badly dressed 8īs either, death on a stick!


majid_sabet


Jul 16, 2012, 10:49 AM
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Re: [ninepointeight] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline

Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up.

I posted a image right off the most commonly used mountain rescue rope rigging manual and if that's not enough for you then you need to stop climbing












and if you ever see a bunch of guys coming to rescue you with a bowline, tell them, we alllll gooonaaa die


ninepointeight


Jul 16, 2012, 10:55 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
ninepointeight wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline

Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up.

I posted a image right off the most commonly used mountain rescue rope rigging manual and if that's not enough for you then you need to stop climbing












and if you ever see a bunch of guys coming to rescue you with a bowline, tell them, we alllll gooonaaa die

I don't have a problem with the picture. You said '75%' of rescuers in North America use a bowline. How many rescuers did you poll or what survey did you use as a source for that statistic?

I think you made up a statistic to give your statement weight. I'm calling bullshit.


(This post was edited by ninepointeight on Jul 16, 2012, 10:57 AM)


majid_sabet


Jul 16, 2012, 11:57 AM
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Re: [ninepointeight] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
ninepointeight wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
and yet, Yosemite rescuers along with 75 % of other rescuers in North America continuously use bowline

Please give your source for that statistic because it sure sounds like you made it up.

I posted a image right off the most commonly used mountain rescue rope rigging manual and if that's not enough for you then you need to stop climbing












and if you ever see a bunch of guys coming to rescue you with a bowline, tell them, we alllll gooonaaa die

I don't have a problem with the picture. You said '75%' of rescuers in North America use a bowline. How many rescuers did you poll or what survey did you use as a source for that statistic?

I think you made up a statistic to give your statement weight. I'm calling bullshit.

Are you involved in any mountain rescue activities ?

I mean, generally when a specialty manual shows a certain way of rigging and its backed by a lot of well known people on a specific industry, it could indicate a trend. may be not 75% but even higher.


ninepointeight


Jul 16, 2012, 11:59 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

Are you involved in any mountain rescue activities ?

I mean, generally when a specialty manual shows a certain way of rigging and its backed by a lot of well known people on a specific industry, it could indicate a trend. may be not 75% but even higher.

No.

You admit you made up the statistic then?


majid_sabet


Jul 16, 2012, 1:57 PM
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Re: [ninepointeight] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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ninepointeight wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:

Are you involved in any mountain rescue activities ?

I mean, generally when a specialty manual shows a certain way of rigging and its backed by a lot of well known people on a specific industry, it could indicate a trend. may be not 75% but even higher.

No.

You admit you made up the statistic then?

if you are not involved with mountain rescue team or those who use this specific knot then the given percentage does not apply to you nor should you be concern.


ninepointeight


Jul 16, 2012, 2:03 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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Up Up Down Left Right A B


wivanoff


Jul 17, 2012, 6:53 AM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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I notice that YosemiteBowline from Germany joined Youtube on 7/14/12 and posted this video.

YosemiteBowline then joined rc.com on 7/15 and linked to this video saying: "The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems"

Stefanfischer from Germany joined rc.com on 7/16 and refers to the OP's (YosemiteBowline's) comments.

Stefanfischer joined UKC.com on 7/16 and linked to the youtube video
http://www.ukclimbing.com/...200&v=1#x6950948 "Yosemite bowline not safe for climbing"

Stefanfischer joined Gunks.com on 7/16 and linked to the youtube video
http://gunks.com/...is_not_safe_f#UNREAD"Yosemite bowline is not safe for climbing"

Stefanfischer joined supertopo.com on 7/16 and linked to the youtube video saying he "just seen" it
http://www.supertopo.com/...r-climbing-after-all"The Yosemite bowline isn't safe for climbing after all"


Just curious: Stefan Fischer, are you "YosemiteBowline" and did you post that youtube video?



Marylandclimber


Jul 17, 2012, 7:18 AM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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Why doesn't everyone just tie the figure eight. You don't have all these problems like the bowline.


maldaly


Jul 17, 2012, 9:54 AM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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There's actually an intelligent discussion about this same video going on over at supertopo:

http://www.supertopo.com/...r-climbing-after-all

A lote less speculation and some actual testing results rather than knot tricks and flame-wars.

climb safe,
Mal


Partner rgold


Jul 17, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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Although we have to thank Stefan for bringing this issue to everyone's attention, I think it has now been shown to be a false alarm. See Jim Titt's test results posted in the threads on this subject on UKC,
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=513200,
and SuperTopo,
http://www.supertopo.com/...r-climbing-after-all.

There are two points to understand. The first is that, of course, that the alternative configuration in the video is very easily avoided. But more importantly, the warnings about the knot being "untied" in case the alternative configuration is somehow obtained are not true in any practical sense. The "incorrect" version of the knot, properly dressed and tightened, is fine, as Jim's tests demonstrate.

The video obtains the "untied" state of the alternative configuration by considerably transforming a loosely-tied knot. In this regard, one should note that an ordinary bowline, if loosely tied, can be transformed in an analogous way to an untied configuration. The point is that these transformations require a very loose knot and do not occur when a properly dressed and tightened knot is loaded. Put another way, the fact that a knot can be loosened and transformed to something bad does not mean that the knot itself is bad if it is not loose and so not transformable.

So whether you do the Yosemite finish correctly or incorrectly, as long as you dress and tighten your knot, you get an acceptable result either way.

Whether or not this is the knot you choose is another issue.


(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 17, 2012, 10:12 AM)


stefanfischer


Jul 17, 2012, 12:22 PM
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Re: [wivanoff] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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wivanoff wrote:
Just curious: Stefan Fischer, are you "YosemiteBowline" and did you post that youtube video?
lol,
no I'm not,
just someone sent me the link, I guess when the video was just out of the oven.


guangzhou


Jul 17, 2012, 6:59 PM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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Marylandclimber wrote:
Why doesn't everyone just tie the figure eight. You don't have all these problems like the bowline.

Because some of us prefer the bowline and have no issues with it. Over 20 years of tying the knot now.

Why don't some people realize that the way they do things isn't the only correct way.


acorneau


Jul 17, 2012, 7:14 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:


Interlocked long-tail bowlines.

Do I win a cookie?


Partner rgold


Jul 17, 2012, 7:35 PM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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I think the bowline might be more of a problem now than it used to be.

Offhand, I think I know 4 knots for tying in (not counting finishing variations), 4 knots for clipping in, 7 knots for joining two ropes, and 5 friction knots. (Just counting off in my head here and probably missing some.) There are a few more suited to anchoring to trees and for self-rescue applications, so maybe altogether 25 or 30 climbing knots.

When I started climbing, the bowline was the standard knot, perhaps for as much as 100 years, but all knots were assumed to have strengths and weaknesses, so we learned a bunch and chose the one that seemed best suited to the task.

When the figure-8 was first introduced, it was promoted as the only knot a climber had to know. Rethreaded figure-8 for tie-in, figure-8 loop for clip-in, Flemish bend for joining two ropes, and you were set. I think the mentality of knowling a little as opposed to a lot set in, even though the figure-8 for everything idea faded.

The figure-8 tie-in has much to recommend it and I would never tell anyone to use anything else. But for those who can tie knots and evaluate the results, it is worth having a toolbox with more than one tool in it.


USnavy


Jul 17, 2012, 9:41 PM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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yosemitebowline wrote:
Apparently, finishing up the bowline with the Yosemite finish actually unties the bowline.

This video shows how this can happen - this seems to me a bit dangerous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dj5Y3h1AEI
Well, that bowline version seems like a pretty poor choice for tying in to start with. It's just a single bowline! If you tie the bowline like I do, it is perfectly safe. I tie what is ultimately a bowline on a bight, and I finish it off with a Yosemite finish. As I understand it, this version is one of the most secure, if not the single most secure way of tying the bowline. I have only been using it for a limited period of time, but I have taken about 150 lead falls on it so far from ropes ranging from 9.1mm redpoint specials to 10.5mm gym stiffies, and it has never started to loosen up mid climb, or show any signs that it is unsafe.

Here is how I do it. But instead of having a fisherman's knot at the end, I take the tail and feed if back through the two horizontal circles of rope that pinch the body of the bowline.




(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 17, 2012, 9:48 PM)


wivanoff


Jul 18, 2012, 6:17 AM
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Re: [yosemitebowline] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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I don't know why I keep coming back to this thread...

The video shows a single loop bowline with a "Yosemite" finish. The knot is poorly tied, unfinished and then manipulated. Maybe I should make a youtube video of a loosely tied and manipulated clove hitch on a carabiner and see if it gets as much mileage as this thread....

Do people really tie in with a single loop bowline? I can't remember ever seeing anyone do that. Maybe you have, but I haven't. For the last 40 years I've used a double loop bowline and then a grapevine knot (half double fisherman's) after the Yosemite finish.

And I still find it strange that the user "YosemiteBowline" created an account here just to promote his youtube video and hasn't been back for any discussion since. Is there no WIFI under the bridge?


Marylandclimber


Jul 18, 2012, 6:31 AM
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Re: [rgold] The Yosemite bowline may not be as safe as it seems [In reply to]
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I understand it's worth knowing many knots and how safe they are but tying in with the bowline sounds just stupid. We had the incident in the climbing gym with an experienced climber falling because he tied in with a bowline. The figure eight is very easy to visually check and is super strong. But i see what your saying.

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