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acorneau


Jul 14, 2012, 5:42 PM
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I'm surprised at how few people use a Münter hitch.

Frown


sbaclimber


Jul 14, 2012, 11:08 PM
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Re: [acorneau] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
I'm surprised at how few people use a Münter hitch.

Frown
I use the munter (btw, no umlaut) hitch, ATC in guide mode, and ATC redirected. It all depends on the situation.
To release an ATC in guide mode, I use a nut tool. Looks a bit stupid carrying one while sport climbing, but hey, it works!Tongue


patto


Jul 15, 2012, 12:54 AM
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Re: [herites] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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herites wrote:
Strange. I outweigh my girlfriend by a good 15 (maybe 20 now) kilos, and she never complained about this when belaying me from above. We use an upward pull piece if it's a hanging belay though, and if on a ledge she can get a stable stance.
I presume you are redirecting? I don't redirect but it has nothing to do with being pulled into the anchor. As far as I'm concerned there are normally just far better ways to belay a redirect.

acorneau wrote:
I'm surprised at how few people use a Münter hitch.
I was using the munter hitch a far bit earlier this year when I was without my reverso. So in most situations where I'd normally use the reverso in autoblock I used the munter. It worked well but it has a tendency to twist the rope if pulled while loaded. Furthermore it doesn't autoblock.

So as far as I'm concerned a reverso is far superior to a munter unless I'm intending to lower. Wink


acorneau


Jul 15, 2012, 4:01 AM
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Re: [sbaclimber] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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sbaclimber wrote:
I use the munter (btw, no umlaut)


Don't know why I always thought it had the umlaut. Thanks for the correction, though!


ninepointeight


Jul 15, 2012, 7:18 AM
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Re: [acorneau] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
sbaclimber wrote:
I use the munter (btw, no umlaut)


Don't know why I always thought it had the umlaut. Thanks for the correction, though!

There is a smokin hot Indy car driver who spells her name that way.


JimTitt


Jul 15, 2012, 8:36 AM
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Re: [acorneau] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
sbaclimber wrote:
I use the munter (btw, no umlaut)


Don't know why I always thought it had the umlaut. Thanks for the correction, though!

To be accurate it is not HAD but HAS since he is very much alive and kicking! I´ll admit I always though he belonged to a generation of pre-war hard men but in reality he´s no older than a few that post on here (born in 1941). He is one of the worlds experts on avalanches.


acorneau


Jul 15, 2012, 2:31 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
To be accurate it is not HAD but HAS since he is very much alive and kicking! I´ll admit I always though he belonged to a generation of pre-war hard men but in reality he´s no older than a few that post on here (born in 1941). He is one of the worlds experts on avalanches.

Wow, very cool!

If you happen to see him please give him my best regards!


gunkiemike


Jul 17, 2012, 1:16 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
What I've found works is to clip a sling to the biner that the rope goes around (not the one attaching the device to the anchor), and pulling on this sling. When the biner is pulled away from the device it allows the rope to feed, but still provides plenty of friction so that you aren't going to get a sudden unexpected release like can happen with the approved method (obviously, make sure you are holding the brake side of the rope still).

That is PRECISELY what our local, very experienced (20+ years) climbed did and he dropped his partner to the ground as a result. There's a reason why BD and Petzl instruct you to use the release hole.


kennoyce


Jul 17, 2012, 2:22 PM
Post #34 of 44 (2095 views)
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Re: [gunkiemike] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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gunkiemike wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
What I've found works is to clip a sling to the biner that the rope goes around (not the one attaching the device to the anchor), and pulling on this sling. When the biner is pulled away from the device it allows the rope to feed, but still provides plenty of friction so that you aren't going to get a sudden unexpected release like can happen with the approved method (obviously, make sure you are holding the brake side of the rope still).

That is PRECISELY what our local, very experienced (20+ years) climbed did and he dropped his partner to the ground as a result. There's a reason why BD and Petzl instruct you to use the release hole.

I guess he wasn't experienced enough to know that you never let go of the brake side of the ropeWink


blueeyedclimber


Jul 17, 2012, 2:52 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
What I've found works is to clip a sling to the biner that the rope goes around (not the one attaching the device to the anchor), and pulling on this sling. When the biner is pulled away from the device it allows the rope to feed, but still provides plenty of friction so that you aren't going to get a sudden unexpected release like can happen with the approved method (obviously, make sure you are holding the brake side of the rope still).

That is PRECISELY what our local, very experienced (20+ years) climbed did and he dropped his partner to the ground as a result. There's a reason why BD and Petzl instruct you to use the release hole.

I guess he wasn't experienced enough to know that you never let go of the brake side of the ropeWink

I don't believe that was the issue, if I am thinking of the same accident. It was pulling on the biner in combination without redirecting the brake strand. He couldn't be held and dropped.

I have lowered many times on a guide, and as long as you use the hole with a sling redirected and attached to your harness in combination with the brake strand redirected, there should be no problem.

The real problem is that so many climbers (myself included at one time) buy them, use them and when they need to do something like lowering, they either don't know how or even worse, know in theory and are figuring it out on the fly.

Once I realized that I was missing this vital piece of information, I practiced in a safe setting.

Every piece of equipment has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Josh


Partner rgold


Jul 17, 2012, 3:09 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
I guess he wasn't experienced enough to know that you never let go of the brake side of the rope.

If the brake side of the rope hasn't been redirected through a higher anchor point and/or attached to either the harness or the higher point by a Munter hitch, then once the autoblock friction is removed, the rope on the brake side is no longer a brake strand, and you don't have to have let go of it to drop the second.

Pulling on the rope-blocking biner can remove the friction even more suddenly than the designed unlocking mechanism, at which point if you haven't taken one of the supplementary braking actions mentioned above, you are basically just holding the follower in your hand (less whatever friction you get from a biner).

No matter how many years you've been climbing, you are still a noob when it comes to new equipment, something experienced climbers overlook at their (or their partners') peril.

I suspect that there's a ton of climbers out there who aren't prepared for everything an autoblocking belay off the anchor can deal them.


(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 17, 2012, 3:10 PM)


kennoyce


Jul 17, 2012, 3:14 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
gunkiemike wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
What I've found works is to clip a sling to the biner that the rope goes around (not the one attaching the device to the anchor), and pulling on this sling. When the biner is pulled away from the device it allows the rope to feed, but still provides plenty of friction so that you aren't going to get a sudden unexpected release like can happen with the approved method (obviously, make sure you are holding the brake side of the rope still).

That is PRECISELY what our local, very experienced (20+ years) climbed did and he dropped his partner to the ground as a result. There's a reason why BD and Petzl instruct you to use the release hole.

I guess he wasn't experienced enough to know that you never let go of the brake side of the ropeWink

I don't believe that was the issue, if I am thinking of the same accident. It was pulling on the biner in combination without redirecting the brake strand. He couldn't be held and dropped.

I have lowered many times on a guide, and as long as you use the hole with a sling redirected and attached to your harness in combination with the brake strand redirected, there should be no problem.

The real problem is that so many climbers (myself included at one time) buy them, use them and when they need to do something like lowering, they either don't know how or even worse, know in theory and are figuring it out on the fly.

Once I realized that I was missing this vital piece of information, I practiced in a safe setting.

Every piece of equipment has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Josh

That makes sense, obviously you have to brake in the direction that will provide friction, if you keep the brake strand down, when you release the autoblock there will be basically no friction since the rope is just running over the biner at that point. You don't necicarily need a redirect, you can just hold the rope in the brake position (above the device in this case). Sounds like a case of someone not understanding the basics of how a belay device works.

edit to add that it looks like rich beat me too it.


(This post was edited by kennoyce on Jul 17, 2012, 3:18 PM)


patto


Jul 17, 2012, 11:55 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
Sounds like a case of someone not understanding the basics of how a belay device works.

Exactly. Its not that complicated. If you think "brake rope down to brake" then your aren't thinking about it properly. You need to understand what you are doing.

Unfortunately more and more people seem to think using climbing equipment is a matter of reading the manual or following instructions that a mate gave you.

The sad fact is that MANY climbers (especially sport climbers) have little grasp of how their equipment works dangers involved. It scares me how little some people understand.

I am lucky that I am an engineer and have and aptitude towards such understanding. Personally, I wouldn't be placing my life in climbing equipment if I didn't understand it. The first thing I did with the original reverso is figure out how it autoblock. The next thing I did was figure out what would prevent a safe autoblocking.

I know some people who have taken up trad due to their love of climbing and then stop it because they don't trust their aptitude towards competent use of the gear. This is much smarter than the alternative.


Marylandclimber


Jul 18, 2012, 6:34 AM
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Re: [acorneau] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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It sounds like the Munter hitch is the way to go. I've seen people use and used it to rappel. Maybe I'll use it more often. It sounds allot easier then making some rig just to lower somebody.


bearbreeder


Jul 18, 2012, 7:15 AM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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you can drop people with a munter ... make sure you know 2 things when using a munter

- how to transition into a monster munter ... with larger people more friction is sometimes useful for better control, especially on overhangs ...

- the munter mule tie off ... for obvious reasons

i see plenty of people know the basic munter ... and not know the above ... ie how to tie off, etc ... that said i also see plenty of people use an atc and not know how to tie em off properly either, or increase the friction ... there was recently an incident report of someone being dropped with a regular atc

know yr gear, know how to use it, and practice it ....

Wink


Marylandclimber


Jul 18, 2012, 9:34 AM
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Re: [bearbreeder] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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Thanks! I'll learn those and be sure to practice it many times before putting it in use.


bearbreeder


Jul 18, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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resources for munter bondage fun

Tongue

http://www.climbing.com/...trad_-_munter_magic/

http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/...dfs/ImprovBrakes.pdf

http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/...dfs/RescueMunter.pdf


patto


Jul 18, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Re: [Marylandclimber] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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Marylandclimber wrote:
It sounds like the Munter hitch is the way to go. I've seen people use and used it to rappel. Maybe I'll use it more often. It sounds allot easier then making some rig just to lower somebody.

The munter is excellent and totally underused. Personally I'll keep using my Reverso in autoblock, but if I expect needing to lower somebody then ill use another method.

bearbreeder wrote:
- how to transition into a monster munter ... with larger people more friction is sometimes useful for better control, especially on overhangs ...
Tests show that the friction of the munter is pretty much better than all tube belay devices.

More knowledge is better, but I wouldn't consider a monster essential.


The munter twist your rope from lowering and rapping. That is the big drawback.


bearbreeder


Jul 18, 2012, 1:41 PM
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Re: [patto] ATC guide Lowering? [In reply to]
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you should know how to increase the friction for any non assited locking device you use ... lowering people on a thin < 9.4 mm rope aint the funnest in the worlds if they are 200+ lbs and with a rack and pack ... same with a standard atc

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