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What does "Like Outside" mean?
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Kartessa


Jul 20, 2012, 7:04 AM
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What does "Like Outside" mean?
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I was at the gym the other night and noticed that the setting is a little wonky: sandbagged grades, awkward movements, ridiculous reaches. I asked what was up with the change in style - because I'm nosey and meddlesome - and I was told that they're trying to be more "like outside"

WTF does that mean?! Outside where? Please point me to the crag that has neon-orange pumpkin shaped holds and tape all over it.

This just sounds like pretentious bullshit to make excuses for a shitty setter. Yes, there are great climbs outside that deserve their 3 or 5 or 12 star rating, but they have flow and are a pleasure to pummel yourself on. Setting a no-star nightmare that goes for a whole 25-feet in a gym is in no way going to make me appreciate whatever the setter was trying to emulate. If I found a route like that outside, I'd leave it for the moss and lichen and any creatures that care to die in the ginormous jugs.

Setters: What makes a climb "like outside" when you're setting plastic? I apologise for what may be perceived as rude or angry, but I have a hard time understanding/trusting people who seem to be on more drugs than me.


Partner j_ung


Jul 20, 2012, 9:08 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
I was at the gym the other night and noticed that the setting is a little wonky: sandbagged grades, awkward movements, ridiculous reaches. I asked what was up with the change in style - because I'm nosey and meddlesome - and I was told that they're trying to be more "like outside"

WTF does that mean?! Outside where? Please point me to the crag that has neon-orange pumpkin shaped holds and tape all over it.

This just sounds like pretentious bullshit to make excuses for a shitty setter. Yes, there are great climbs outside that deserve their 3 or 5 or 12 star rating, but they have flow and are a pleasure to pummel yourself on. Setting a no-star nightmare that goes for a whole 25-feet in a gym is in no way going to make me appreciate whatever the setter was trying to emulate. If I found a route like that outside, I'd leave it for the moss and lichen and any creatures that care to die in the ginormous jugs.

Setters: What makes a climb "like outside" when you're setting plastic? I apologise for what may be perceived as rude or angry, but I have a hard time understanding/trusting people who seem to be on more drugs than me.

I don't think I can defend that. When I was setting regularly, I occasionally tried to emulate specific areas or specific climbs, I never tried to "be more like outside." IMO, setters should revel in everything unique plastic has to offer. The differences between indoor and outdoor climbing were part of what make it fun for me to set.


jh_angel


Jul 20, 2012, 11:16 AM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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Sandbagging aside, when I find a route to feel awkward I tend to give it another look to see if it was something I was doing wrong, as I've seen people butcher routes I've set, before I turn the blame on the route. If it turns out it is the route and not me, then yeah, it's just a stupid route. If the setter did that intentionally, then that's a problem.

If enough of the customers feel the same way, you can approach the head setter or the manager and get it sorted out. As j_ung said, part of the fun of setting inside is that you can make it completely unlike outside, but still be doing something that will benefit your outside climbing.


lena_chita
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Jul 20, 2012, 12:13 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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Hopefully this is just one setter, and not the majority of routes in the gym.

I have occasionally tried to set routes or boulder problems that emulate a specific move or sequence that got my attention on a specific climb on real rock.

Usually the results are mixed. Sometimes I manage to replicate the move, more often than not, it ends up being different enough from what I had pictured that it is no longer could be called a replica of that move. And then nobody but me climbs through that sequence the way I do it, so it is all a wash, anyway.

It is worth it for me if it is a move that gives me trouble and I manage to adequately reproduce it. But I would never want to have the entire gym set up that way...

A funny story. Last year, another routesetter in the gym set a problem and called it moderately-difficult. Usually "moderate" in our gym means that I can flash it or get in couple goes. But this particular problem was giving me a LOT of trouble. Forget couple tries. After 20 or 30 tires I didn't feel that i was making any progress, and i was becoming increasingly frustrated.

When I complained to him that the moves on this problem didn't feel "moderate", and tracking feet made it pretty much impossible, he was surprised. His response was, "but I set it to be like (Specific problem at Cooper's Rock State park) I saw you do it last weekend, you walked it!"

A long friendly argument ensued... Then just for giggles I set a problem that was "like that same problem outside"-- but the way I did it.

Needless to say, the two resulting problems had nothing in common, despite sharing a couple of holds, and the grading was widely disputed. All the tall guys felt that his problem was moderate, and mine was balls-hard, all the short people felt that my version was moderate, and his was very hard...

...and then we forgot all about it.


Kartessa


Jul 20, 2012, 2:01 PM
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Re: [lena_chita] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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I think I left out a bit... It's the "direction" that they're trying to take through the whole gym. Considering they pay the setters who are all young and all but one haven't climbed anywhere beyond Ontario or Kentucky, I found it to be a wee bit pretentious.


acorneau


Jul 20, 2012, 9:06 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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Kartessa wrote:
Setters: What makes a climb "like outside" when you're setting plastic?


Just answering this one question:

1. Plenty of feet
2. Good number of holds, maybe "too many", but many that may not be very good (meant to be feet) so you have to find the good/usable ones for your hands.

To me, that is what makes an indoor route feel like an outdoor route.


Traches


Jul 21, 2012, 4:47 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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You won't ever be able to make indoor climbing like outdoor climbing for a lot of reasons, but I think one of the bigger ones is that with indoor climbing you're mostly limited to 2 dimensions. Yeah you can have some features, some overhangs and that sort of thing, but there's not nearly enough variation in that third dimension to emulate real climbing. The biggest examples that jump to my mind are climbing up onto featureless ledges, or pulling a roof-- things I've never seen on a route inside.


edge


Jul 21, 2012, 4:54 PM
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Re: [Kartessa] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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You should request advance notice as to when they intend to import mosquitos and plant poison ivy next to the water cooler.


guangzhou


Jul 22, 2012, 2:31 AM
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Re: [edge] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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edge wrote:
You should request advance notice as to when they intend to import mosquitos and plant poison ivy next to the water cooler.

Or turn on the fire system to simulate rain.

Climbing gym routes are contrived by nature. Reachy routes make you learn to deal with real routes that have long reaches.

By Indonesian standards, I tend to be very tall. 6ft2. My route setters often set routes that require me to get bunched up over a lip or under a roof feature. True when the routes have a traversing nature to them too. Puts me in very awkward position where they tend to be on their feet.

Instead of complaining about it, I use those moves and routes as a learning opportunity for when I end up on routes that have similar move outdoors.

I also tend to believe that most people who complain about route setter here on forums are just looking for someone to blame when they can't do a route that is "within their ability."


Kartessa


Jul 22, 2012, 8:05 AM
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Re: [guangzhou] What does "Like Outside" mean? [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:

I also tend to believe that most people who complain about route setter here on forums are just looking for someone to blame when they can't do a route that is "within their ability."

I'm not necessarily complaining about the setter. I know not everything will be tailored to my skills. Really, it's more about the absurdity of the comment.


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