There is a guy on here (Caughtinside I think) who ripped three "textbook" .75 Camalots in parallel placements in good rock. .

Not me. If I did something like that I might quit climbing.

Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

Who ever it was probably tore a huge hole in their patagucci boxers and still has a scar on their ass.

Interesting, I thought it was. Well I guess I dont know who it is then, but the thread is on here somewhere, I distinctly remember it.

...until you fall on a piece of gear, you dont know for certain it will hold.

So only the pieces you fell on held. The others were shit as far as you know. How does that tell you that any one piece will hold.

Yes, statistically, 300 falls might be a good enough sample to make you confident that you are placing gear well or falling too often. On the other hand, who falls 300 times on trad gear? I don't think that statistics is the way to go in measuring a persons ability to place gear. I prefer to measure their intelligence instead.

I have only fallen on trad gear once in ten years. It held. What does that tell you about my ability to place gear?

And it was an Alien so it holding was actually a bit of a miracle.

Dave

I don't think that statistics is the way to go in measuring a persons ability to place gear. I prefer to measure their intelligence instead

I dont care how high your IQ is or how many times you scored a 36 on the ACT...

I forgot to add that you should care about the IQ of the person you climb with. Stupid people don't make good belayers. I won't climb with someone whose IQ is below average. At least a little intelligence increases the odds that the untested piece is going to hold (since we are using statistics to determine trad safety now).

Dave

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure you're remembering it wrong. I can think of a couple accidents in recent history, both at the Creek, both with very clear reasons for the gear pulling. Not perfect placements of mid-sized cams in good rock.

GO

I forgot to add that you should care about the IQ of the person you climb with. Stupid people don't make good belayers. I won't climb with someone whose IQ is below average. At least a little intelligence increases the odds that the untested piece is going to hold (since we are using statistics to determine trad safety now).

Dave

Yes and no. Millage is very important, but that only goes so far. First, lets consider the entire point of trad climbing. Why do we place pro on a trad climb? Because we want it to arrest a fall, should we fall. So how could someone who has never actually tested a piece of gear possibly be more qualified than someone who tests it all the time? At the end of the day, you can climb trad every day of ever year, but until you actually fall on a piece, its just a guess as to whether it will hold or not. Falling on pieces often and verifying they hold confirms that you have the appropriate skill set required to place good pro.

Now, I agree that taking whips on gear left and right is not a good idea for most people. But there are plenty of people out there who successfully do it, and those who do have much more experience confirming their placements are solid than the rest of us do. Again, I am not saying that you should just throw yourself into pieces all day, nor am I saying that if you dont fall you are not a qualified trad climber. I am simply saying that those who fall often are those who have actually confirmed their placements work.

Nope, it was not at IC. It was at some limestone crag. Apparently the pieces ripped partly because there was a very thin layer of some mossy type crap in the cracks which transferred over onto the cam lobes. The OP posted pictures of the cams and the route in his thread.

I think that was chossmonkey. Anyone know where the thread is?

GO

Who ever it was probably tore a huge hole in their patagucci boxers and still has a scar on their ass.

This was kind of touched on but being able to manage a group if you're the most experienced one is key. If its just you and one other equally in-experienced person, its much easier to be the "leader" if its you and 5 other in-experienced people you're going to have a lot more a gong show on your hands.

You can't be everywhere at once watching people unless you aren't climbing for the day which I often see beginners forget about. They want to go climb but they also want to take all of their friends so they set up a top rope and leave their friends to fuck around while they go lead hard things without paying much attention to the n00bs belaying or any of the other things going on.

If you want to be a trip leader, you have to keep in mind that if you're going out with a bunch of n00bs you're going to have to play rock climbing baby sitter to make sure no one gets hurt. You can't just throw up some ropes and then do your own thing.

Found it.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1708704#1708704

GO

I agree with everything in your post above, but... you're still missing a very important point, and it's the fact that you don't want to acknowledge this point that is the reason why you're getting so much flak in this thread:

There are two halves to this point.

1 - No matter how good you are at placing it, falling on trad gear is always a gamble. Being very good at placing it simply tips the odds more in your favor.

2 - When the stakes of that gamble are severe injury or worse, rolling those dice is a gamble that should be indulged in to a minimum, if you want to have a long and a healthy climbing career.

Failing to acknowledge those points as you do, you appear to be denying them. And that puts you in what many see as a very dangerous camp - those who bring a sport climbing mentality to trad. An attitude that is at odds with the history and meaning of the discipline.

And that attitude is not just about history. It's about simple self preservation in the game of traditional climbing. And if you don't take responsibility for your own safety, you are the enemy of the very heart of traditional climbing.

GO